March 4, 2021

Building a Brand Story That Resonates with Your Ideal Customer with Michael Solomon

Building a Brand Story That Resonates with Your Ideal Customer with Michael Solomon
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Season 4

In part 4 of our Masterclass Series on Building a Strategic Marketing Plan, host Eric Dickmann talks with Professor of Marketing and Author, Michael Solomon, about Building a Brand Story That Resonates with Your Ideal Customer.

Michael “wrote the book” on understanding consumers. Literally. Hundreds of thousands of business students have learned about Marketing from his books including "Consumer Behavior: Buying, Having and Being" -- the most widely used book on the subject in the world.

Michael’s mantra: We don’t buy products because of what they do. We buy them because of what they mean. He advises global clients on marketing strategies to make them more consumer-centric, and he is currently directing Nielsen’s revamp of its global Brand Health Model. Michael is a Contributor at Forbes.com, where he writes about issues related to consumer behavior, marketing, and retailing. His articles have been cited over 30,000 times, and he is frequently quoted in publications such as The New York Times, The Washington Post, Time, USA Today, and Adweek. His newest book, The New Chameleons: Connecting with Consumers Who Defy Categorization, will be published globally by Kogan Page in February 2021.

As a Professor of Marketing (in the Haub School of Business at Saint Joseph’s University in Philadelphia), a sought-after keynote speaker, and an industry consultant, Michael combines cutting-edge academic theory with actionable real-world strategies.

His latest book, "The New Chameleons - Connecting with Consumers Who Defy Categorization" is available now on Amazon

For additional resources on this episode and from our other episodes in this Masterclass Series, visit https://fiveechelon.com/masterclass

For more information about Eric Dickmann and The Five Echelon Group, visit https://fiveechelon.com/

For more information about Michael Solomon, visit https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelsolomon/

Episode #55

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WEBVTT

00:00:00.678 --> 00:00:03.258
Michael welcome to the virtual CMO podcast.

00:00:03.258 --> 00:00:04.937
I'm so glad you could join us today.

00:00:05.508 --> 00:00:06.948
Thanks so much for having me.

00:00:06.948 --> 00:00:07.788
I appreciate it.

00:00:08.237 --> 00:00:19.577
Now, this is great because, um, as our listeners know, uh, this season, we are doing a masterclass series all around this idea of building out a strategic marketing plan for your business.

00:00:20.057 --> 00:00:36.798
And in previous episodes, you know, we've covered out the purpose behind building that plan, the target market, your ideal customer profile, product market fit and competitive differentiation, all of those building blocks to help you understand how you want to market your product and service.

00:00:37.128 --> 00:00:45.287
And I'm really excited today that we can talk with you about this idea of building a brand story that resonates with your target customer.

00:00:45.648 --> 00:00:48.287
So for our audience, who might not be familiar with you.

00:00:48.828 --> 00:00:52.277
If you could just take a few minutes and give us a little bit of your background.

00:00:52.307 --> 00:00:54.527
Um, I, that would be great.

00:00:55.667 --> 00:00:55.997
Sure.

00:00:56.027 --> 00:01:08.207
Well, you know, I never ask a professor to tell you what he does because Uh, but yeah, I'm a, uh, I'm a professor of marketing at Saint Joseph's university in Philadelphia.

00:01:08.388 --> 00:01:10.158
I'm a consumer psychologist.

00:01:10.938 --> 00:01:15.138
And I've been studying consumer behavior for a lot of years.

00:01:15.168 --> 00:01:18.408
And I worked had the opportunity to work with a lot of companies.

00:01:19.037 --> 00:01:22.397
With a lot of brands to make them more consumer centric.

00:01:22.397 --> 00:01:30.138
So basically what, what I focus on is looking at what we call the deep meanings of brands and, you know, the idea, Mike.

00:01:30.768 --> 00:01:32.058
I guess my mantra is.

00:01:32.718 --> 00:01:36.558
We don't buy things because of their functionality because of what they do.

00:01:36.558 --> 00:01:38.778
We buy them because of what they mean.

00:01:38.778 --> 00:01:42.858
And that's where your brand story comes in is it's so important.

00:01:42.947 --> 00:01:46.457
Uh, you know, time after time is I've worked in different verticals.

00:01:46.457 --> 00:01:47.268
I've seen that.

00:01:47.718 --> 00:01:54.317
That many, you know, and, and managers hate to hear this, but consumers think that most of the competing brands are pretty much the same.

00:01:54.977 --> 00:01:57.168
Every, every manager owner hates to hear that.

00:01:57.737 --> 00:02:01.487
Uh, but there's always one or two that kind of stand out from the rest.

00:02:01.487 --> 00:02:04.337
You know, your apples, your Nike's, the usual suspects.

00:02:05.298 --> 00:02:13.877
And so what I focus on is, is really looking at the brands that successfully tell a story and a story that people want to hear.

00:02:14.538 --> 00:02:17.478
A story that people want to participate in telling.

00:02:17.478 --> 00:02:19.427
And that is, you know, as you're.

00:02:20.057 --> 00:02:25.008
Focusing in this masterclass on strategic planning and competitive differentiation.

00:02:25.397 --> 00:02:28.608
That is usually the single biggest differentiator.

00:02:28.608 --> 00:02:31.038
So that's what I do in the process.

00:02:31.337 --> 00:02:32.927
I I'm a textbook author.

00:02:32.927 --> 00:02:48.138
I, uh, my book on consumer behavior is very widely used in business schools and, um, And, uh, yeah, I love to, I love to do keynotes and, and talk about why brands are so important to us in the roles they play in our lives.

00:02:48.798 --> 00:03:04.098
You know, I love the mantra that you just talked about, and I really want to dive into that a little bit more, but you mentioned something else that was something we talked about a little on the, on the previous show, which is this idea that there aren't that many revolutionary products out there.

00:03:04.307 --> 00:03:10.608
Most products are just incremental improvements or changes to what's out there.

00:03:10.788 --> 00:03:15.828
Do you see this a lot when you're talking with companies, you know, you mentioned the fact that a lot of a.

00:03:15.888 --> 00:03:21.527
Founders CEOs tend to think that their product or service is so unique and different, but it's not really true.

00:03:21.527 --> 00:03:21.828
Is it?

00:03:22.608 --> 00:03:25.068
It's it's usually not true.

00:03:25.217 --> 00:03:33.138
Uh, I mean, there are, there are glaring exceptions and those are the real success stories that podcast hosts love to talk about, you know?

00:03:33.198 --> 00:03:44.358
Um, uh, and, and actually sometimes, you know, the revolution is not in, in the functionality of the product, because like you say, it's usually an incremental improvement.

00:03:45.048 --> 00:03:50.207
But sometimes the revolution is actually sparked by the users of the product.

00:03:50.207 --> 00:03:57.318
And they're the ones who, who, uh, not only come up with new uses for a product, they come up with new meanings for a product.

00:03:57.858 --> 00:04:01.698
Uh, you know, we can talk about examples of that if, if, if you'd like, but.

00:04:02.328 --> 00:04:10.457
One of the most important developments today is that your, your brand is not something that you create and own.

00:04:11.117 --> 00:04:15.828
It's actually co-created and co owned by your customers.

00:04:15.828 --> 00:04:16.487
And a lot of.

00:04:17.028 --> 00:04:19.577
Business people have trouble accepting that idea.

00:04:20.447 --> 00:04:25.788
But in today's, you know, wild West internet world where anybody can post whatever they want.

00:04:26.358 --> 00:04:31.367
You have to be very, you have to really keep your ear to the ground and see what your customers are doing.

00:04:31.367 --> 00:04:33.557
That's revolutionary with your brand.

00:04:35.177 --> 00:04:36.437
That's interesting that you talked about.

00:04:36.468 --> 00:04:53.927
Cause in the pre-call we were talking a little bit about something that Walmart did over the holiday season, uh, with Tik TOK, where they actually did a virtual fashion show with influencers and influencers or something relatively new in marketing.

00:04:53.927 --> 00:04:58.728
I think, you know, we used to call them brand advocates, but it's, it's changed its terminology a little bit.

00:04:58.728 --> 00:04:59.687
And what that means.

00:05:00.168 --> 00:05:06.767
But is that the kind of thing that you're talking about with a consumer's really owning the brand a little bit more?

00:05:07.278 --> 00:05:11.478
Yeah, well, that's, I mean, that's certainly part of it and everybody's talking about influencers.

00:05:11.507 --> 00:05:17.267
In fact, some people are saying that their day is already over a certain either pandemic has.

00:05:17.898 --> 00:05:21.437
Has taken the bloom off the Rose of some of those influencers.

00:05:21.528 --> 00:05:24.918
Um, to some extent it's all wine and new bottles, you know, like.

00:05:26.208 --> 00:05:37.127
Brand ambassadors, influencers, uh, opinion leaders over the years, you know, But, but the, the basic idea is that every day people are very.

00:05:37.757 --> 00:05:42.137
Are today much more proactive in terms of how they relate to brands.

00:05:42.137 --> 00:05:48.077
And what that means is that they often take a brand and they change the meaning of it.

00:05:48.827 --> 00:05:53.358
So that it actually, in some cases it expands to a new market.

00:05:53.598 --> 00:05:55.937
If I can give you a quick example that comes to mind.

00:05:56.057 --> 00:05:56.598
Please do.

00:05:56.958 --> 00:05:59.418
You take a, you take a brand like Timberland, right?

00:05:59.418 --> 00:06:00.767
So everybody knows Timberland.

00:06:00.798 --> 00:06:02.538
It's a great outdoor brand.

00:06:03.017 --> 00:06:08.208
Uh, you know, it's all about the wilderness and being at one with nature, et cetera, et cetera.

00:06:08.958 --> 00:06:19.728
And when you see the ads for Timberland traditionally, it's, you know, it's cocky young, Caucasians, very happy and healthy out in the woods somewhere, you know, or climbing a glacier or something.

00:06:20.358 --> 00:06:29.838
Um, and then a few years ago, uh, what happened was you had some, I guess we'll call them influencers, um, in the, in the African-American community.

00:06:30.588 --> 00:06:33.048
That actually took that brand.

00:06:33.048 --> 00:06:38.298
And if you will hijack that, and this happens a lot, you know what I call brand hijacking where.

00:06:38.927 --> 00:06:45.497
Uh, where some of these people who were concentrated in urban areas, you know, really never were, were, had the.

00:06:46.127 --> 00:06:48.677
Opportunity to go out to national parks and stuff.

00:06:49.187 --> 00:06:51.348
Uh, started to wear the, the, the, the.

00:06:51.408 --> 00:06:53.567
The clothing and especially the shoes.

00:06:54.108 --> 00:06:57.288
And it became actually part of hip hop subculture.

00:06:58.067 --> 00:07:02.658
And so you started to see a lot of, uh, you know, music videos and things like this.

00:07:03.137 --> 00:07:05.658
Not necessarily sponsored by Timberland, you know?

00:07:06.017 --> 00:07:17.028
But what that means is so they're essentially these people are, I think my theory is they were making an ironic statement by saying I'm the last person you'd ever see out hiking in the, in the wilderness.

00:07:17.567 --> 00:07:21.437
Because, you know, my domain is, is the urban jungle, so to speak.

00:07:21.858 --> 00:07:26.987
Um, but so I'm going to make this ironic statement and in the process.

00:07:27.528 --> 00:07:31.038
This opened up an entire new market for this brand.

00:07:31.427 --> 00:07:36.228
And it wasn't something to the best of my knowledge that they instigated at all.

00:07:36.798 --> 00:07:41.987
But they are smart enough to kind of take the pulse of who was wearing and what they were doing with it.

00:07:42.497 --> 00:07:44.507
And that creates new opportunities.

00:07:44.507 --> 00:07:53.088
So there are many examples of that certainly in the fashion area, but, but he, you know, even in B2B settings, And I know you do most of your work there.

00:07:53.658 --> 00:07:58.548
If you look at the so-called boring place, you know, industries like chemicals and things like that.

00:07:58.608 --> 00:08:01.067
I'm showing my bias because I usually work in B to C.

00:08:01.728 --> 00:08:09.137
Um, if you look at something like the chemical industry, You know, according to research, I've seen about 70%.

00:08:09.528 --> 00:08:12.737
Of the new product ideas and that industry.

00:08:13.127 --> 00:08:15.798
Came from the customers of those.

00:08:16.127 --> 00:08:17.298
Chemical companies.

00:08:17.387 --> 00:08:17.927
Interesting.

00:08:18.137 --> 00:08:19.817
And there's similar findings.

00:08:19.817 --> 00:08:24.288
You don't want a variety of engineering, uh, you know, uh, aviation and so on.

00:08:24.737 --> 00:08:26.418
Um, it's the customers.

00:08:26.927 --> 00:08:31.788
Who are living with that product and are now putting their own stamp on it.

00:08:31.788 --> 00:08:34.967
So it's not that they've entirely taken it over.

00:08:35.327 --> 00:08:44.957
But they are co-owners in the sense that after you release it or sometimes before you release it, in the case of say Lego's or somebody like that, they do a great job of that.

00:08:45.378 --> 00:08:56.177
Um, these are companies that are not afraid to give their customers a peek under the kimono and, and, and, and not wait to, to release a brand or product before.

00:08:56.177 --> 00:08:58.008
It's absolutely perfect.

00:08:58.727 --> 00:09:08.238
And that is that's one of the biggest changes we see now there are, you know, the biggest exception there is Apple because they're famously secretive about, you know, about leaks.

00:09:08.807 --> 00:09:11.238
Um, but they're the exception that proves the rule.

00:09:11.238 --> 00:09:25.398
And, and so really this revolution and thinking, I believe started with software because this notion of a beta testing, you know, and getting your users to find the bugs in the program before you launch it before you launched that code.

00:09:25.908 --> 00:09:30.048
I mean, that's been an enormous game changer for companies like Microsoft.

00:09:30.888 --> 00:09:32.508
And so your listeners.

00:09:32.927 --> 00:09:34.908
You can adopt that perspective.

00:09:34.908 --> 00:09:40.067
I think by, by not look by not keeping your customers at a distance.

00:09:40.457 --> 00:09:47.927
But rather by acknowledging and welcoming them, uh, to be part of your development team and part of your sales force.

00:09:48.857 --> 00:09:58.638
And in general, what we find is that, that whenever you get, whenever people have the opportunity to be literally involved in creating what they buy.

00:09:59.298 --> 00:10:03.258
Their level of engagement with that brand goes through the roof.

00:10:03.288 --> 00:10:05.628
I actually, we called the Ikea effect.

00:10:06.317 --> 00:10:10.937
Uh, sometimes because everybody has to build all the bookshelves and things like that.

00:10:11.687 --> 00:10:15.107
Yolk that I, whenever I've done that, I always have like five pieces left over.

00:10:15.107 --> 00:10:16.307
I don't know what they are, you know?

00:10:16.847 --> 00:10:26.567
But the, but the, but what I was like, you know, I'd say is like, if I build a bookshelf, you know, every time I look at that bookshelf, I'm not just seeing a bookshelf, I'm seeing my own sweat and labor.

00:10:26.988 --> 00:10:27.947
That went into that.

00:10:27.947 --> 00:10:30.977
And so my level of engagement with that.

00:10:31.577 --> 00:10:35.628
Is much, much bigger than it would be with just a boring bookshelf and.

00:10:36.258 --> 00:10:39.018
No matter what product or service you're you're into.

00:10:39.498 --> 00:10:43.607
I think you could probably identify some parallels that can be very powerful.

00:10:44.418 --> 00:10:46.217
You know, you said a couple interesting things.

00:10:46.217 --> 00:10:47.807
I want to drill down on one of them.

00:10:47.927 --> 00:11:01.248
Uh, and I find this a lot when I'm dealing with founders of companies, CEOs is that they get very sort of single-minded in their vision of what their product or service is or does.

00:11:01.697 --> 00:11:08.628
And in fact, there may be data sitting right in front of the net, says customers are using this product in a slightly different way.

00:11:08.778 --> 00:11:10.307
If you would explore that.

00:11:10.788 --> 00:11:15.557
You might have a whole new source of revenue or a whole new direction for this product.

00:11:15.857 --> 00:11:33.378
And oftentimes they're saying, well, yeah, but I don't want to put all my eggs in that basket, but I think your point is so well taken is that sometimes customers can literally be your best resource in product development or market research to say, Hey, we, we can take this product in another direction that maybe we never even thought of.

00:11:34.607 --> 00:11:35.717
Absolutely.

00:11:35.748 --> 00:11:39.077
And, you know, uh, sometimes it takes a while for this to sink in.

00:11:39.077 --> 00:11:41.238
I maybe if I could share a quick story with you that

00:11:41.298 --> 00:11:41.898
please do.

00:11:41.898 --> 00:11:43.638
favorites, it's a little dated now, but.

00:11:44.118 --> 00:11:47.298
Some of your viewers may remember the movie office space.

00:11:47.357 --> 00:11:48.768
It was kind of a cult hit.

00:11:49.187 --> 00:11:49.668
Um,

00:11:50.087 --> 00:11:50.567
Very much.

00:11:50.567 --> 00:11:51.018
So, yeah.

00:11:51.408 --> 00:11:51.648
yeah.

00:11:51.648 --> 00:11:52.518
You know, some crazy.

00:11:52.518 --> 00:11:57.977
And there was one guy in particular, the guy, I forget his name, but he, you know, the one that they put in the basement, you know, they were always trying to.

00:11:58.457 --> 00:11:59.177
Get rid of them.

00:11:59.628 --> 00:12:04.488
Uh, he was a really weird guy and, and he had this red stapler.

00:12:05.087 --> 00:12:06.768
That he used, it was a pretty big.

00:12:07.008 --> 00:12:09.768
You know, it was pretty big in the, in the plot of the movie.

00:12:10.548 --> 00:12:14.477
And he was very jealous of the, you know, very guarded about this red stapler.

00:12:15.138 --> 00:12:19.008
And, and there was no such thing as a red stapler is actually a Swingline stapler.

00:12:19.368 --> 00:12:25.097
Common grace stapler and some prop guy when they were filming the movie, had the idea to spray, paint it red.

00:12:25.128 --> 00:12:25.488
Okay.

00:12:26.418 --> 00:12:32.927
Well, swing line starts, you know, when the movie starts to become a cult hit swing line starts getting emails.

00:12:33.197 --> 00:12:39.258
And, you know, from customers saying, where can I buy that red staple, that the guy stapler, that the guy had.

00:12:39.347 --> 00:12:40.278
guy had in the movie.

00:12:40.878 --> 00:12:44.238
Well, they didn't make one, well, two years.

00:12:44.717 --> 00:12:49.307
Afterwards two years afterwards, swing line came out with a red stapler.

00:12:50.207 --> 00:12:52.998
So, uh, you know, it was a mixed bag.

00:12:53.057 --> 00:12:59.477
It took them a long time to figure it out, but they eventually figured out, you know what people are asking us for something we don't make.

00:13:00.168 --> 00:13:02.748
But we know that there's demand there because they're asking us.

00:13:02.748 --> 00:13:10.427
And so they, they finally, you know, it's like turning a battleship, but with a big company, But kudos to them for finally figuring it out.

00:13:10.427 --> 00:13:15.437
And that red stapler flew off the shelves because people identified with it so strongly.

00:13:15.437 --> 00:13:21.197
So when, when your customers start making suggestions to you, I'm not saying you should follow every one.

00:13:21.227 --> 00:13:22.998
Some of them are going to be off the wall.

00:13:23.538 --> 00:13:23.957
But.

00:13:24.557 --> 00:13:25.847
Listen to them carefully.

00:13:25.847 --> 00:13:29.268
And when you talk about data, that's right under your nose.

00:13:29.687 --> 00:13:36.347
Your employees are often the best source of marketing research that you have, and it's free.

00:13:36.798 --> 00:13:47.868
You know, unless you incentivize them, which I think you should too, too, because they're in the trenches every day, you know, they're interacting with customers, they're hearing their objections, et cetera.

00:13:48.437 --> 00:13:51.768
And yet when it comes time to let's say, develop next year's line.

00:13:52.548 --> 00:13:58.337
How many companies actually go to their Salesforce or to their top salespeople and say, Hey, what are you seeing?

00:13:59.087 --> 00:14:00.528
And it's right there, you know?

00:14:00.648 --> 00:14:01.128
Yes.

00:14:01.607 --> 00:14:02.748
Yeah, there's good intelligence.

00:14:02.778 --> 00:14:03.798
That's right in the company.

00:14:03.798 --> 00:14:05.628
And may not even be used.

00:14:06.048 --> 00:14:10.847
I want to talk about something that you mentioned in your book and let me make sure I've got the quote, right?

00:14:10.847 --> 00:14:16.878
But you talk about how marketers sell vertically, but consumers by horizontally.

00:14:17.357 --> 00:14:19.577
Can you explain a little bit about what you mean by that?

00:14:19.638 --> 00:14:20.837
I thought that was so interesting.

00:14:21.197 --> 00:14:23.597
Yeah, I'll, I'll try to explain quickly.

00:14:23.597 --> 00:14:27.768
So, so basically, no matter what business you're in, you're in a vertical, right.

00:14:27.768 --> 00:14:29.177
We refer to it as a vertical.

00:14:29.927 --> 00:14:38.148
And when you benchmark your performance, when you come up with new product ideas, You're always looking at your most immediate competition.

00:14:38.868 --> 00:14:40.158
And there's nothing wrong with that.

00:14:41.028 --> 00:14:44.418
But it's a very, very myopic view.

00:14:45.048 --> 00:14:48.408
Because consumers don't care about your competitors.

00:14:48.827 --> 00:14:50.628
They don't care about your market share.

00:14:51.467 --> 00:14:53.687
Consumers are buying horizontally.

00:14:53.687 --> 00:14:57.077
And what I mean by that is they are looking across verticals.

00:14:57.618 --> 00:15:05.418
So, if you can imagine, you know, I, I don't have a Blackboard or anything here, but if you can imagine a bunch of verticals, you know, and let's, let's say it's a living room.

00:15:05.538 --> 00:15:05.957
Okay.

00:15:06.168 --> 00:15:10.457
We have lamps, we have tables, we have carpet, you know, whatever we have all that.

00:15:10.607 --> 00:15:12.827
The knickknacks, the things that go into a living room.

00:15:13.427 --> 00:15:22.697
So if you're a lamp manufacturer, You're benchmarking directly against other lamps, but for me as a consumer, I'm looking for a lamp.

00:15:23.087 --> 00:15:27.498
That is complimentary to what I've bought in other verticals.

00:15:27.738 --> 00:15:29.268
Like, does it go with that couch?

00:15:29.327 --> 00:15:30.618
Does it go with that table?

00:15:31.158 --> 00:15:31.758
Et cetera.

00:15:32.418 --> 00:15:43.337
So that's what I mean by horizontal buying, which is that what we are, what we're doing is we're, we're constantly assembling a, if what I call a constellation of products.

00:15:43.788 --> 00:15:46.967
That go together because in our minds that go together.

00:15:46.967 --> 00:15:50.388
So when you think about a constellation up in the sky, right?

00:15:50.418 --> 00:15:54.528
The ancient Greeks looked up in the sky and they see these random stars up there.

00:15:55.187 --> 00:15:59.357
But our brains don't see them as random the way we're wired psychologically.

00:15:59.687 --> 00:16:02.898
Is that our brains are looking for patterns and connections.

00:16:02.927 --> 00:16:07.638
And so what was a random collection of stars becomes the big dipper.

00:16:07.758 --> 00:16:08.057
Right?

00:16:08.057 --> 00:16:10.217
And then there's a story about the big dipper that.

00:16:10.758 --> 00:16:12.618
That people that people tell.

00:16:13.337 --> 00:16:20.148
Well in the same way, when we see some brands together, we assume that there will be other brands that go with that.

00:16:20.837 --> 00:16:29.327
Because the media, you know, there's a lot of influences on this, but, but let's, you know, one of my favorite examples, hopefully some of your listeners are old enough to remember the yuppie.

00:16:29.567 --> 00:16:29.807
Right.

00:16:29.807 --> 00:16:29.957
I don't

00:16:30.018 --> 00:16:30.557
The APY.

00:16:30.557 --> 00:16:31.638
Yeah, that's right.

00:16:32.508 --> 00:16:36.557
But how do we define the yuppie if there ever was such a thing?

00:16:36.947 --> 00:16:40.668
Uh, we define the yuppie largely in terms of what he or she owned.

00:16:40.668 --> 00:16:42.618
And it wasn't just in one category.

00:16:43.038 --> 00:16:45.378
It was, uh, it was a Rolex.

00:16:45.378 --> 00:16:47.447
It was, you know, playing squash.

00:16:47.477 --> 00:16:54.738
It was, uh, Berberi and Brooks brothers and, and Brie and white wine and on and on.

00:16:55.488 --> 00:17:04.397
So you'll notice, you know, if I give people that descriptor, if I say here's a person who actually uses these, you know, we've done a kind of an inventory check of what they're using.

00:17:05.147 --> 00:17:07.248
A lot of people would say, Oh, that's a yuppie.

00:17:08.327 --> 00:17:08.837
And.

00:17:09.557 --> 00:17:18.827
And that makes perfect sense to consumers because no matter what, you know, what your social identity is, There's a lot of things that go along with that.

00:17:18.827 --> 00:17:20.508
So music is a great example.

00:17:21.107 --> 00:17:27.107
If you look and I actually, years ago, I did some work with back when MTV used to really show music videos.

00:17:28.097 --> 00:17:36.557
Um, I did some work with them and we, we, we actually showed music videos to people, to kids both here and in Scandinavia.

00:17:37.157 --> 00:17:40.188
Uh, with the sound music videos they had never seen before.

00:17:40.218 --> 00:17:40.728
Okay.

00:17:40.907 --> 00:17:42.107
the sound off.

00:17:42.887 --> 00:17:46.097
And we asked them to tell us what John era of music.

00:17:46.577 --> 00:17:48.167
Was playing in that video.

00:17:48.617 --> 00:17:49.157
Oh, interesting.

00:17:49.157 --> 00:17:54.198
And as you can imagine, they were just about a hundred percent accurate without even hearing.

00:17:54.528 --> 00:18:01.428
The music just by seeing who the people were, you know, what products they were holding up, you know, a bottle of liquor or something like that.

00:18:01.577 --> 00:18:04.548
They were able to say, Oh, that's rock that's country.

00:18:04.548 --> 00:18:05.238
That's hip hop.

00:18:05.327 --> 00:18:06.077
What have you.

00:18:07.008 --> 00:18:09.768
Because they are looking horizontally.

00:18:10.758 --> 00:18:15.468
And so strategically that's I can't tell you how important that is.

00:18:15.917 --> 00:18:20.298
Um, it can be as simple as going to a clothing store like Nordstrom.

00:18:20.837 --> 00:18:25.518
And buying a, let's say you go to a Nordstrom year, obviously a snappy dresser.

00:18:25.518 --> 00:18:26.417
I appreciate that.

00:18:27.407 --> 00:18:27.557
got.

00:18:28.337 --> 00:18:30.528
Nordstrom and you buy a shirt.

00:18:31.008 --> 00:18:34.788
Well, if you're a really good sales person, what should you do?

00:18:34.817 --> 00:18:37.157
You should, you should March you over.

00:18:37.397 --> 00:18:42.887
Or the sales person should March you over to the jacket, to the blazer section or the suits.

00:18:43.278 --> 00:18:44.417
Or the Thai section.

00:18:45.018 --> 00:18:46.607
And we call that upselling right.

00:18:47.417 --> 00:18:55.218
What it means is, you know, how often do you walk into a clothing store and you see a mannequin with wearing an entire outfit?

00:18:55.458 --> 00:18:55.817
Right.

00:18:56.057 --> 00:18:57.198
That someone has put together.

00:18:57.228 --> 00:19:01.998
Not very often, you know, I don't I'm talk, I'm not just talking about a shirt and a tie.

00:19:02.028 --> 00:19:03.557
I'm talking about accessories.

00:19:03.557 --> 00:19:04.758
I'm talking about shoes.

00:19:05.028 --> 00:19:06.228
Maybe a briefcase.

00:19:06.827 --> 00:19:09.258
That's a very powerful way to merchandise.

00:19:09.978 --> 00:19:19.877
Right because it's going horizontal across, you know, The time maker may not be the same as the shirtmaker, but they certainly have a lot of synergy.

00:19:20.357 --> 00:19:20.958
Together.

00:19:21.587 --> 00:19:33.498
So when you see even joined promotions, like some, like I remember Louis Vuitton, you know, they had a, uh, a leather version of, I want to say it was a Mercedes, like maybe I think it was Alexis actually.

00:19:33.827 --> 00:19:38.718
Where, so you buy the Lexus and you get these leather seats and that, that are made by Louis Vuitton.

00:19:39.438 --> 00:19:44.778
Now, you know, that's not rocket science, but it's two very different verticals.

00:19:45.498 --> 00:19:47.238
You know, leather goods and automotive.

00:19:47.268 --> 00:19:47.867
I mean, come on.

00:19:47.867 --> 00:19:49.728
What do they have to do with one another?

00:19:49.998 --> 00:19:56.688
Well, it turns out a tremendous amount because the same person who buys a Lexus is likely to, you know, to buy that, that quality of leather.

00:19:57.498 --> 00:19:59.178
And, and, and on and on and on.

00:19:59.178 --> 00:20:11.928
So, you know, I would encourage your viewers to, to really come up out of their vertical sometimes and ask themselves, what are, you know, when people buy my product, what else are they buying with it?

00:20:12.948 --> 00:20:22.698
And you can, you know, at the least you can find some very interesting cross licensing cross-merchandising opportunities because you're not just looking at functionality.

00:20:23.028 --> 00:20:27.107
Like, you know, if I'm a lamp manufacturer, like I was saying before, yeah.

00:20:27.107 --> 00:20:29.238
I can go to GE and say, Hey, we should partner.

00:20:29.268 --> 00:20:31.307
Cause you make light bulbs that go in my lamp.

00:20:32.117 --> 00:20:33.288
Well, that's, that's great.

00:20:33.317 --> 00:20:45.377
But I should also go to that couch company and say, Hey, you know, we, we can coordinate an entire and it's like, like you go to Ikea, which I mentioning again, you know, I'm not working for Ikea, but.

00:20:46.488 --> 00:20:48.258
So, you know, they'll have, and they will do this.

00:20:48.258 --> 00:20:50.688
They'll have an entire say a kid's bedroom.

00:20:51.377 --> 00:20:51.617
Right.

00:20:51.738 --> 00:20:54.678
It's got everything set up or, you know, there's a company.

00:20:54.678 --> 00:21:00.288
I don't know if they're still around called rooms to go where, you know, uh, you, you basically order a whole room.

00:21:00.288 --> 00:21:04.397
I think, I think a lot of guys who got divorced and were thrown out of their houses would buy.

00:21:04.698 --> 00:21:08.117
You know, rooms to go because they, they, they could get a whole room delivered.

00:21:08.627 --> 00:21:21.498
Um, that kind of horizontal marketing is very rare, but I can't stress enough how powerful it is because it's a reminder of the more basic principle that I'm, that I'm really pounding on here, which is.

00:21:22.038 --> 00:21:23.928
Walk a mile in your customer's shoes.

00:21:23.988 --> 00:21:29.087
Don't sit in your office and assume that you understand what your customer does.

00:21:29.718 --> 00:21:34.847
And furthermore, you know, another corollary to that, and I've seen this in my own work many times.

00:21:36.317 --> 00:21:43.817
Many managers cater or think about the customer they want to have, rather than the customer, they actually have.

00:21:43.907 --> 00:21:44.448
Oh, yeah.

00:21:44.508 --> 00:21:53.867
You know, so, and so in fashion, you know, or, or other products like that, Everybody wants to go after the affluent, you know, 30 year old urban woman, let's say.

00:21:54.827 --> 00:22:00.018
But in fact, your customer may be a 50 year old woman who lives in the Heartland somewhere.

00:22:01.127 --> 00:22:08.748
But everybody's got this, this notion, which is why, for example, uh, older people are largely ignored in television advertising.

00:22:09.107 --> 00:22:12.468
Even though they, they spend much more money than younger people do.

00:22:13.097 --> 00:22:14.298
People want to go to what?

00:22:14.298 --> 00:22:15.228
Sexy, right?

00:22:15.617 --> 00:22:16.008
Yeah.

00:22:16.067 --> 00:22:16.307
Yeah.

00:22:16.337 --> 00:22:19.847
And as I've gotten older, somehow that problem seems more, more of a big deal to me.

00:22:19.847 --> 00:22:20.327
I don't know why.

00:22:22.307 --> 00:22:27.647
Well, you know, what's interesting just to add onto your example, you know, you're talking about rooms to go.

00:22:27.978 --> 00:22:31.157
I actually have an email from them the other day.

00:22:31.607 --> 00:22:31.788
Oh,

00:22:31.938 --> 00:22:43.458
they wanted to create a virtual background for me to be able to use on zoom calls, but obviously it would be all of their furnishings and whatnot that would be in this.

00:22:43.458 --> 00:22:48.377
So you could create a virtual room using their furnishings and they would do this to you for free.

00:22:49.008 --> 00:22:49.458
Yeah.

00:22:49.548 --> 00:22:50.988
That's that is great.

00:22:51.107 --> 00:22:51.798
Kudos to

00:22:52.127 --> 00:22:52.667
Yeah.

00:22:52.698 --> 00:22:56.778
it's creative and taking advantage of the circumstances that exist right now.

00:22:57.137 --> 00:23:05.867
And you know, everything that you're saying really to me, You know, comes together around this idea of creating a story for your brand, right.

00:23:06.137 --> 00:23:09.167
You don't just have a product or a service.

00:23:09.377 --> 00:23:15.347
You have a product or service that fits into a business or a person's life in some way.

00:23:16.038 --> 00:23:27.018
And part of the story that you're trying to create is how can your product or service fit into, uh, the workings of a business or the workings of somebody's life in a way that adds value and changes it.

00:23:27.018 --> 00:23:27.468
So.

00:23:27.917 --> 00:23:36.048
You know, who do you think are some examples out there that you think have really created a fantastic brand story?

00:23:36.468 --> 00:23:39.528
You know, we're in this age right now where everything is so visual, right?

00:23:39.617 --> 00:23:40.938
We've all got cameras.

00:23:41.208 --> 00:23:45.557
Uh, in our pockets, we've got YouTube and Instagram and all these channels.

00:23:45.738 --> 00:23:52.397
And I see brands taking advantage of this in ways, uh, that are largely different than before.

00:23:52.397 --> 00:23:56.448
You know, there were newspapers and magazines and radios and things like that.

00:23:56.657 --> 00:24:03.377
But today you can create such an immersive experience for your brand to really tell that story.

00:24:03.708 --> 00:24:07.188
Uh, are there some that come to mind you that think do an excellent job?

00:24:07.637 --> 00:24:08.627
That's a great question.

00:24:08.627 --> 00:24:11.117
You know, there's, I mean, there's a lot of ways to answer it one way.

00:24:11.117 --> 00:24:16.097
I, well, first of all, you know, there was, there was a famous marketing researcher named William Shakespeare.

00:24:16.877 --> 00:24:17.357
And what would.

00:24:17.387 --> 00:24:20.117
Shakespeare said all the world's a stage.

00:24:20.178 --> 00:24:20.597
Yes.

00:24:21.347 --> 00:24:25.998
And that perspective, we call that the dramaturgical perspective on marketing.

00:24:26.238 --> 00:24:27.617
Um, I've written about that a lot.

00:24:27.617 --> 00:24:33.528
And, and what it means is that we are actually like, uh, you know, like attending a play.

00:24:33.528 --> 00:24:34.667
When we think about.

00:24:35.387 --> 00:24:40.367
A lot of these situations where we have actors that are expected to say certain things.

00:24:40.907 --> 00:24:43.637
Um, you know, we have props, we have settings.

00:24:44.087 --> 00:24:45.768
And all of that is so crucial.

00:24:46.428 --> 00:24:48.498
Um, so to answer your question.

00:24:48.557 --> 00:24:51.258
You know, one, one thing to do is to look at some celebrities.

00:24:51.678 --> 00:24:53.567
And how they've reinvented themselves.

00:24:53.627 --> 00:24:56.508
Uh, my favorite, my favorite personally is Ralph Lauren.

00:24:57.498 --> 00:24:59.327
And what I love about Ralph Lauren.

00:24:59.748 --> 00:25:02.657
Uh, is, I mean, he's does great work, et cetera.

00:25:02.688 --> 00:25:08.897
But when you think about his brand story and everybody can probably visualize it, you know, you think of.

00:25:09.407 --> 00:25:12.498
You know, maybe you think of this, this beautiful blonde.

00:25:12.738 --> 00:25:16.548
You know, kind of waspy couple walking on the beach, in the Hamptons.

00:25:17.028 --> 00:25:21.048
In white linen with their sheep dogs running around, you know, so it's that

00:25:21.198 --> 00:25:22.038
It's so true.

00:25:22.218 --> 00:25:23.627
That's exactly the image I get.

00:25:23.688 --> 00:25:24.048
Yeah.

00:25:24.107 --> 00:25:30.827
You know, and, and, but when you look at him, so, you know, he literally invented reinvented himself.

00:25:30.827 --> 00:25:32.567
So his real name is.

00:25:32.988 --> 00:25:35.387
I don't think it's a secret is Ralph

00:25:35.928 --> 00:25:36.288
Yes.

00:25:36.288 --> 00:25:36.678
Yes.

00:25:36.948 --> 00:25:39.917
the son of a, of a Jewish house painter from Brooklyn.

00:25:41.087 --> 00:25:43.607
And not many of his customers know that.

00:25:44.837 --> 00:25:45.617
You know, so

00:25:45.708 --> 00:25:47.357
roll off the tongue quite the same.

00:25:47.778 --> 00:25:51.948
And so he, at some point, you know, has invented himself in the same way.

00:25:51.978 --> 00:25:55.577
We might say Kim Kardashians has invented herself.

00:25:55.607 --> 00:25:57.768
You know, that's a whole different brand story, I guess.

00:25:58.278 --> 00:26:05.627
Um, but this happens a lot with celebrities just by changing their, their name, you know, uh, Martha Stewart.

00:26:06.107 --> 00:26:07.518
Has got a certain image.

00:26:07.788 --> 00:26:11.897
Uh, you know, maybe it involves going to jail, but for a lot of people, it's a different image.

00:26:12.407 --> 00:26:18.077
Um, but you know, she's the daughter of Polish immigrants, you know, she's, she reinvented herself.

00:26:18.678 --> 00:26:20.597
And you can go on and on and on.

00:26:20.657 --> 00:26:23.657
Um, you know, even just taking a stage name.

00:26:24.258 --> 00:26:24.798
Uh, yeah.

00:26:24.827 --> 00:26:29.057
As many, obviously many singers and actors and other people do.

00:26:29.417 --> 00:26:33.198
Is part of a way to, uh, to, to reinvent yourself.

00:26:34.218 --> 00:26:45.288
And the point is that once you create that story, if people buy into that, Then that story is again, co-created by the consumers of that.

00:26:45.288 --> 00:26:56.268
And so you think of a fandom, for example, if you know that term, it would, you know, people who are just incredibly passionate about some, let's say a TV show, like lost or something like that.

00:26:56.268 --> 00:26:56.688
Yep.

00:26:56.897 --> 00:26:58.998
So you think about star Trek, right?

00:26:59.028 --> 00:27:04.607
So you've got, um, obviously a huge to this day, even though it hasn't been on for a long time.

00:27:04.877 --> 00:27:10.278
You know, this huge community of people, like, you know, the ones who dress up and go to these conventions and stuff.

00:27:10.847 --> 00:27:17.748
But you've also got several really well done star Trek movies that were done by fans of star Trek.

00:27:17.748 --> 00:27:18.708
So they were written.

00:27:19.157 --> 00:27:22.278
By people who are just, you know, crazy about star Trek.

00:27:22.817 --> 00:27:22.938
Yeah.

00:27:22.968 --> 00:27:29.087
Some of them actually, uh, star some of the people who appeared in minor roles in the original star Trek.

00:27:29.867 --> 00:27:37.008
And so you continue to have this community and you could say the same for star Wars and, and many other franchises like that.

00:27:37.038 --> 00:27:40.488
You know, Disney understands this very well and on and on.

00:27:41.448 --> 00:27:41.778
Wait.

00:27:41.897 --> 00:27:50.478
And I think, you know, some of the examples you gave are so good because if you take a brand like a Ralph Lauren or something like that, You can visualize it.

00:27:50.508 --> 00:27:57.887
And then that extends to the displays in the stores or the packaging or the advertising or the website.

00:27:58.097 --> 00:28:01.248
That story comes through and sure.

00:28:01.248 --> 00:28:08.627
When you're selling a brand like that, maybe that's a little easier to create a story around versus a chemical company or S or something.

00:28:08.988 --> 00:28:10.397
Along those lines.

00:28:10.788 --> 00:28:24.647
But, you know, there are ways to, you know, say that we're an environmentally conscious company, for example, where we're doing things in a way that is safe for the environment or, uh, what is the, a, the, a sock company.

00:28:24.647 --> 00:28:31.667
I think that says, you know, for every pair of socks that you buy, we donate a pair of socks, you know, to a, to a homeless shelters or something like that.

00:28:31.907 --> 00:28:40.157
There are ways to create a story around your brand, really, no matter what it is, you're selling, but so many brands really don't take.

00:28:40.188 --> 00:28:41.748
The opportunity to do that there.

00:28:41.778 --> 00:28:50.807
So product centric that you really don't have any idea what they stand for or how those products fit into your culture or your likes or dislikes.

00:28:50.958 --> 00:28:52.397
Yeah, you, you, you nailed it.

00:28:52.397 --> 00:28:58.367
And you know, if I can suggest to your listeners a quick exercise, I've done this many times.

00:28:58.847 --> 00:29:02.567
Um, sit down, you know, if you're the owner or the president, whatever.

00:29:02.958 --> 00:29:06.347
Sit down with, I don't know, three or four of your top people.

00:29:07.038 --> 00:29:10.998
And, and ideally a few of your top customers.

00:29:11.508 --> 00:29:13.788
And give each one a very simple assignment.

00:29:14.478 --> 00:29:21.288
Which is, um, imagine that one day your brand comes to life as a person.

00:29:21.948 --> 00:29:25.817
And you wake up one morning and your brand is sitting on the edge of your bed.

00:29:26.897 --> 00:29:28.307
And wants to say hello to you.

00:29:29.268 --> 00:29:31.548
All right, write me a paragraph or two.

00:29:31.877 --> 00:29:36.048
And describe that person as specifically as you can.

00:29:36.678 --> 00:29:40.367
You know, gender age, what music do they like to listen to?

00:29:40.367 --> 00:29:41.748
What are they wearing?

00:29:42.048 --> 00:29:42.887
What do they like to eat?

00:29:42.887 --> 00:29:44.837
Whatever, whatever comes to mind.

00:29:45.647 --> 00:29:46.367
And then.

00:29:47.087 --> 00:29:48.768
Look at everybody.

00:29:48.768 --> 00:29:50.508
So everybody has to do that on their own.

00:29:51.258 --> 00:29:53.178
And then look at everybody's descriptions.

00:29:53.867 --> 00:29:55.038
So on the one hand.

00:29:55.817 --> 00:29:58.008
If everybody aligns really well.

00:29:58.577 --> 00:30:02.178
That tells you something about the solidity of your brand story.

00:30:03.258 --> 00:30:07.758
Now, if your customers write a description, that's very different than your manager's wrote.

00:30:08.298 --> 00:30:10.188
That's a re that's a red flag, right?

00:30:10.188 --> 00:30:17.298
Because it means that that the message you think you're communicating the story you think you're telling is not the story that people are hearing.

00:30:18.498 --> 00:30:23.538
And so regardless of the outcome, and I'm not saying, you know, this is not a scientifically valid approach.

00:30:23.688 --> 00:30:27.468
You know, based on what a few people say, but it can really be eyeopening.

00:30:28.218 --> 00:30:33.738
And what I like to, you know, and I've done this sometimes when I, even, when I've given keynotes and so, or, or seminars.

00:30:34.218 --> 00:30:37.067
And some managers look at me like I'm from Mars.

00:30:38.087 --> 00:30:50.748
And what I say to them is if you can't form an image at all, if you can't relate to this assignment, You have a very serious problem because it means that your brand doesn't have an identity, even in your mind.

00:30:51.317 --> 00:30:52.877
Compared to the competition.

00:30:53.657 --> 00:30:54.978
You're somewhere in limbo.

00:30:55.698 --> 00:31:01.698
And imagine if you can't come up with the story, why would you expect your customers to come up with a story?

00:31:02.508 --> 00:31:03.798
So for what it's worth.

00:31:03.917 --> 00:31:07.218
No, I think that's a great exercise and a very valuable one.

00:31:07.218 --> 00:31:32.147
I'm going to make sure we highlight that in the show notes, because I think, you know, being able to visualize that so important and it's actually a pretty good segue to the next question I wanted to delve into a little bit, which is how important is an emotional connection when you create this brand story versus, you know, facts and, and statistics and features and whatnot.

00:31:32.508 --> 00:31:34.218
In, especially in this stage, in it.

00:31:34.758 --> 00:31:38.238
Day and age, how important is it really to establish that emotional connection?

00:31:39.077 --> 00:31:41.567
Uh, well, how can I answer that?

00:31:41.688 --> 00:31:44.208
The short answer is unbelievably important.

00:31:45.167 --> 00:31:51.317
Slightly long answer, longer answer is, you know, it took, it took the marketing discipline and I'm including academics.

00:31:51.678 --> 00:31:53.718
Researchers who do work in this area.

00:31:54.407 --> 00:31:57.258
It took a really long time, several decades.

00:31:57.708 --> 00:32:01.218
For many of them to figure out that people don't want facts.

00:32:02.958 --> 00:32:09.768
For the, you know, and, and I'm not saying facts aren't relevant, but if you look at the way, our brains are organized.

00:32:10.458 --> 00:32:13.758
Uh, basically, you know, we evolved from reptiles, right.

00:32:13.788 --> 00:32:19.968
And, and you can kind of, it's like a tree when you, you know, you can look at the rings in the tree to see how we, how it's grown.

00:32:20.478 --> 00:32:21.857
Um, are the, the.

00:32:22.127 --> 00:32:27.377
The initial reaction that we have to any stimulus is an emotional reaction.

00:32:28.067 --> 00:32:31.038
Uh, it's something that's formed in the limbic system of the brain.

00:32:31.817 --> 00:32:42.647
And so what we really need to do is to create that emotional response, which, which typically then triggers a desire to justify that response.

00:32:43.367 --> 00:32:45.317
So you want to make people feel.

00:32:45.587 --> 00:32:47.028
Are good about your brand.

00:32:47.028 --> 00:32:56.057
You want to arouse the proper emotions, which is a motivator for them to then tune in and say, why did I feel so great about.

00:32:57.018 --> 00:33:02.867
And that's where they often exp you know, it's like trying to, you know, to someone who's, let's say really into sports cars.

00:33:03.557 --> 00:33:11.387
You know, you say to them, Oh, well, you know, they say, Oh, well I just, you know, this Corvette, you know, 68 Corvette or whatever, just speaks to me.

00:33:11.387 --> 00:33:12.258
You know, I love it.

00:33:12.347 --> 00:33:13.097
And blah, blah, blah.

00:33:13.637 --> 00:33:24.978
And then when you get, and then when you get into asking them why they start giving you answers like about the, you know, the displacement ratio, I don't even know, you know, the different, the torque and the engine and stuff like that.

00:33:25.218 --> 00:33:25.548
Come on.

00:33:25.607 --> 00:33:27.738
That's not why they want that Corvette.

00:33:27.798 --> 00:33:28.817
Right, right.

00:33:28.847 --> 00:33:31.127
They may or may not admit it to themselves.

00:33:31.458 --> 00:33:34.188
But it's purely an emotional reaction.

00:33:34.188 --> 00:33:38.778
And so it's not just, you know, it's big ticket items as well.

00:33:39.228 --> 00:33:48.557
That often have this reaction, you know, like, like buying a house, you know, And so to the extent that you can engage memories, emotions.

00:33:48.557 --> 00:33:53.958
So for example, you know, uh, they used to say, I don't know if they do anymore in the real estate business.

00:33:54.048 --> 00:34:00.917
Uh, you know, one way to sell a house is to have huge door knobs, uh, uh, handles on the front door.

00:34:01.428 --> 00:34:04.097
And the reason is that when people open it.

00:34:04.397 --> 00:34:06.018
Their hands feel smaller.

00:34:06.678 --> 00:34:10.487
And it reminds them of when they were little and they grew up in, in their own house.

00:34:10.518 --> 00:34:12.347
That reminds them of opening the door.

00:34:12.557 --> 00:34:13.277
Or interesting.

00:34:13.518 --> 00:34:18.047
And you also want, of course, want to have the smell of fresh baked bread or something in the oven.

00:34:18.108 --> 00:34:18.378
Right?

00:34:18.708 --> 00:34:32.777
So it's, so even for this very expensive purchase and not just a bobble or a shirt or something like that, I can't, you know, I can't over overplay the, the, the importance of that emotional response.

00:34:32.807 --> 00:34:36.168
Again, I'm not saying you can, you can abandon facts because.

00:34:36.588 --> 00:34:51.467
Especially, but, you know, I was going to say, especially with B2B products, but even there, you have these kind of irrational attachments and I'm sure you could speak to this better than I can, but it may be that, you know, you've got five different competitors that are selling you.

00:34:51.467 --> 00:34:52.788
I don't know, office supplies.

00:34:53.418 --> 00:34:59.478
But you have a relationship with a rep of company a and you'll buy whatever she tells you to buy.

00:35:00.318 --> 00:35:00.677
Right.

00:35:01.038 --> 00:35:05.597
And it has very little to do with whether her pencils are better than the other guys, pencils.

00:35:07.097 --> 00:35:11.597
Well, and I think the whole car industry is based on emotional connection.

00:35:11.597 --> 00:35:11.867
Right.

00:35:11.898 --> 00:35:15.527
You know, what's the difference between a, a Kia and a Mercedes, right?

00:35:15.737 --> 00:35:18.648
They both have four wheels that get you where you want to go.

00:35:18.887 --> 00:35:21.617
Uh, they may even have similar technology and sure.

00:35:21.617 --> 00:35:36.407
You can argue that maybe there's better engineering or better features or whatnot, but it's that emotional connection that drives the huge difference in price and the reason that some people are willing to pay it versus some who aren't, because it's, it's all about that emotional connection.

00:35:36.708 --> 00:35:42.978
And rarely in the advertisements, do they go feature by feature and walk through what's on the window sticker, right?

00:35:43.128 --> 00:35:46.967
They may highlight a thing or two, but it's still about building that emotional connection.

00:35:47.838 --> 00:35:48.557
Absolutely.

00:35:48.677 --> 00:35:53.088
And again, you know, it, it shows you that in so many verticals, I'm sure.

00:35:53.117 --> 00:35:56.538
For example, a car efficient auto is probably not going to like what I'm going to say.

00:35:57.108 --> 00:36:06.557
But it's not that, you know, some cars definitely performed better than others, but there's a minimum level where nowadays, even the cheapest cars are pretty good.

00:36:07.097 --> 00:36:12.228
And sense, and I'm not talking about whether they're going to inspire envy as you drive down the road.

00:36:12.588 --> 00:36:15.197
But they're not going to break down very much.

00:36:16.068 --> 00:36:20.927
You know, and we could say that about computers and phones and many technical products.

00:36:21.438 --> 00:36:23.208
As well as household products.

00:36:23.208 --> 00:36:29.268
I mean, you know, these five dish detergents, they're all, none of them are gonna burn your hands off or

00:36:29.597 --> 00:36:30.257
Right.

00:36:30.557 --> 00:36:31.157
Bad.

00:36:31.697 --> 00:36:42.887
But somebody's going to pay a premium, let's say for method, the method brand, because when they look at the, at the really interesting and beautiful package of that method, I don't know if you're familiar with.

00:36:43.398 --> 00:36:46.248
You know, with the, the, the, the containers that they use.

00:36:47.088 --> 00:36:47.597
In.

00:36:48.527 --> 00:36:52.757
It actually has an aesthetic response for a very mundane.

00:36:53.057 --> 00:36:53.657
Product.

00:36:54.197 --> 00:36:56.387
And that helps to explain their success.

00:36:56.387 --> 00:36:57.077
For example.

00:36:58.427 --> 00:37:02.688
Yeah, this is such a fascinating topic because it really makes a difference.

00:37:02.688 --> 00:37:11.478
You know, we haven't talked too much about a company like Apple, because they're, they're an overused example, but they're overused because they do so many things well, right.

00:37:11.507 --> 00:37:18.498
You know, Steve jobs was famous for never wanting to get into the specifics of how fast his chips were and things like that.

00:37:18.648 --> 00:37:20.057
Cause he was selling other things.

00:37:20.057 --> 00:37:22.338
He was trying to make that emotional connection.

00:37:22.847 --> 00:37:36.887
It's you know, this is just a topic I think we could spend hours on, but I also, as we're sort of getting near the end here, I wanted to give you an opportunity to talk a little bit about your new book that's coming out, because it's exciting to be able to have a book launch.

00:37:36.918 --> 00:37:39.467
And we're very close when this episode comes out.

00:37:39.467 --> 00:37:41.327
I think the book will just be coming live.

00:37:41.597 --> 00:37:44.327
So tell me a little bit about the book it's called the new chameleons.

00:37:44.327 --> 00:37:44.838
Correct.

00:37:45.108 --> 00:37:45.708
Yes.

00:37:45.737 --> 00:37:51.557
Uh, the new chameleons, uh, uh, how to connect with consumers who defy categorization.

00:37:52.277 --> 00:38:08.478
And, and essentially what I talking about there is the reason I use the term chameleons is that that's what modern consumers are in that we change just like chameleons change their colors, you know, constantly we are changing our identities very, very quickly.

00:38:08.478 --> 00:38:10.637
And each of us has multiple identities.

00:38:11.297 --> 00:38:18.918
Uh, so what, what that means is it opens a lot of opportunities for companies, but it also presents a lot of challenges because.

00:38:19.518 --> 00:38:26.148
We, we, uh, we're all grounded in this idea of traditional market segmentation and, you know, Maya culpa.

00:38:26.177 --> 00:38:28.217
I teach my, my own MBA students.

00:38:28.217 --> 00:38:28.518
This.

00:38:29.117 --> 00:38:34.068
Uh, which, which is, you know, the logic is that, that we can't be all things to all people.

00:38:34.637 --> 00:38:40.248
So we divide our market into these fairly large homogeneous segments.

00:38:40.907 --> 00:38:47.027
And we find products that will meet the needs of those people fairly well.

00:38:47.958 --> 00:38:58.637
Um, so, you know, uh, Uh, Henry Ford is famous for saying, you know, my customers can have any color car they want, as long as it's black.

00:38:59.358 --> 00:38:59.628
Right.

00:38:59.657 --> 00:39:00.047
I remember

00:39:00.108 --> 00:39:02.657
And then general motors came along.

00:39:03.047 --> 00:39:06.197
And they actually invented the concept of market segmentation.

00:39:06.228 --> 00:39:07.367
Cause they said, you know what?

00:39:07.967 --> 00:39:13.307
You know, actually just in terms of income, some people, you know, can afford a car.

00:39:13.307 --> 00:39:15.557
That's maybe got some bells and whistles and others.

00:39:15.947 --> 00:39:16.367
Camped.

00:39:16.367 --> 00:39:19.668
And so they came up with this notion of divisions, right?

00:39:20.148 --> 00:39:24.708
Uh, you know, so you've got Cadillac and you've got Chevrolet and you've got others in between.

00:39:25.367 --> 00:39:30.018
Um, but today, Each of us is more like a market of one.

00:39:30.918 --> 00:39:33.228
And we don't want to be placed in market segments.

00:39:33.257 --> 00:39:39.708
You know, whenever I say to someone, you know, if I say, Oh, you're, you know, you're just a typical member of a market segment.

00:39:39.827 --> 00:39:47.717
You know, my student makes them crazy, you know, Oh, you're a 22 year old female who goes to school in an urban area, blah, blah, blah.

00:39:48.047 --> 00:39:50.838
So you're the same as every other 22 year old, blah, blah, blah.

00:39:51.257 --> 00:39:54.918
Well, they go out of their minds because in, because they're very unique.

00:39:55.577 --> 00:40:00.498
And the odds are that, that they are because they're sampling lots of different identities.

00:40:00.498 --> 00:40:05.958
So if I can use a food metaphor, it's kind of like in the old days, you know, you would open a.

00:40:06.288 --> 00:40:10.518
A restaurant like an Italian vertical or a Chinese vertical, or what have you.

00:40:11.117 --> 00:40:17.807
But today we're more like, uh, people who are eating at one of those huge international food buffets.

00:40:18.168 --> 00:40:20.057
I don't know if those will come back after COVID, but.

00:40:21.018 --> 00:40:28.907
You got the idea where we want to put, take our plate and we wanna, you know, we want to put an egg roll on it and then a taco and, and on and on.

00:40:28.938 --> 00:40:31.637
That's the way we're grazers today.

00:40:32.327 --> 00:40:35.568
And so these traditional approaches to segmentation.

00:40:35.807 --> 00:40:43.907
Uh, are not necessarily as valuable, especially when we have the technology that can literally create a market of one.

00:40:43.907 --> 00:40:47.657
And so as I'm sure, you know, very well, let's say it's something like Facebook.

00:40:48.137 --> 00:40:50.568
Uh, you and I can be quite similar.

00:40:51.288 --> 00:40:52.398
Uh, to one another.

00:40:52.878 --> 00:41:04.728
But based on, you know, our past behavior and so on, you might click on, let's say a political ad in Facebook, and I might click on the same one, but we're getting slightly different messages.

00:41:04.847 --> 00:41:05.237
Sure.

00:41:05.237 --> 00:41:12.077
Based on because you've been interested in the past in social justice issues and I've been interested in the past and something else.

00:41:12.407 --> 00:41:16.458
And so the candidate is going to talk to you about one thing and talked to me about another.

00:41:16.788 --> 00:41:19.097
Well, you and I are each a market of one.

00:41:19.097 --> 00:41:31.068
And so the ability to personalize and customize our offerings, whether it's tech products or fashion products or, or services, that is what people are looking for today.

00:41:31.068 --> 00:41:32.958
So in, in the book, I talk a lot.

00:41:33.588 --> 00:41:37.188
About some basic categories that everybody uses.

00:41:37.217 --> 00:41:40.818
And we don't think about it that are no longer valid.

00:41:40.818 --> 00:41:44.297
And so some examples are producers versus consumers.

00:41:44.297 --> 00:41:45.978
Like we were talking about before.

00:41:46.398 --> 00:41:46.788
Today.

00:41:46.818 --> 00:41:47.898
That isn't true.

00:41:47.927 --> 00:41:49.577
Consumers are producers.

00:41:49.967 --> 00:41:52.217
The whole gig economy is evidence of that.

00:41:52.788 --> 00:41:57.708
Uh, online versus offline today, everybody's online and offline all day long.

00:41:57.708 --> 00:42:00.588
And all my students are, while they're listening to me, they're online, you know?

00:42:01.157 --> 00:42:04.518
Uh, or even something as basic as male versus female.

00:42:05.237 --> 00:42:05.568
Right.

00:42:05.568 --> 00:42:10.458
So we, we, our brains like to put people in categories, he's male versus female.

00:42:10.788 --> 00:42:14.358
Today, especially among younger people, the concept of gender.

00:42:15.047 --> 00:42:17.748
Is fundamentally being disrupted.

00:42:17.958 --> 00:42:18.347
Yes.

00:42:18.648 --> 00:42:26.447
And many people are, you know, I mean, there's a lot of political controversies about this, but the point is that this creates new opportunities.

00:42:26.447 --> 00:42:32.597
If let's say you're a company that's traditionally made, let's say female products, whatever that means.

00:42:33.047 --> 00:42:36.047
Well today, you might have males that are more receptive to that.

00:42:36.047 --> 00:42:36.498
So.

00:42:37.097 --> 00:42:42.047
In the UK, for example, a high percentage of men wear cosmetics.

00:42:42.047 --> 00:42:45.318
And there are stores that sell like mascara.

00:42:45.617 --> 00:42:46.398
Yeah, man.

00:42:46.458 --> 00:42:46.878
Kara.

00:42:47.297 --> 00:42:59.327
Uh, you know, uh, there are, there are men who wear man bags, maybe their friends tease them about it, but they carry a man that, well, if you're a hand handbag manufacturer, You, you suddenly discovered a new market.

00:42:59.327 --> 00:43:03.797
If you're willing to abandon your, your very traditional.

00:43:04.188 --> 00:43:12.018
Uh, but very strong assumption that you're either this or that, which is what segmentation, uh, encourages us to think about.

00:43:12.648 --> 00:43:15.077
So I talk about a number of those in the book.

00:43:15.077 --> 00:43:20.628
And I show a lot of examples of companies that have created new markets for themselves.

00:43:20.927 --> 00:43:26.748
By actually letting chameleons out of their cages because they're all escaping anyway.

00:43:27.137 --> 00:43:29.358
And that's how you create new opportunities.

00:43:30.407 --> 00:43:30.858
Apps.

00:43:30.947 --> 00:43:35.927
You know, we started out talking a little bit about influencers are and what not.

00:43:35.927 --> 00:43:41.597
And I think there's, there's a lot of that within that community because it's fitting in by being different.

00:43:42.077 --> 00:43:48.438
And so everybody wants to fit into a certain extent, but at the same point, they want to do it on their own terms.

00:43:48.768 --> 00:43:51.617
And it sounds like exactly what you're talking about.

00:43:51.768 --> 00:43:59.748
I will definitely have links to the book in the show notes so that people can find it, uh, when it's available to order a Michael, this has been a great conversation.

00:43:59.807 --> 00:44:02.177
I think brand stories are so important.

00:44:02.177 --> 00:44:05.418
And the example that you shared with us today, I think are very meaningful.

00:44:05.628 --> 00:44:07.878
So thank you so much for spending time with us today.

00:44:07.878 --> 00:44:09.498
It's been great for our listeners.

00:44:10.248 --> 00:44:11.688
I really appreciate it.

00:44:11.717 --> 00:44:12.858
And I enjoyed it.

00:44:12.978 --> 00:44:13.637
I appreciate it.

00:44:13.818 --> 00:44:14.657
Thank you again.

00:44:15.108 --> 00:44:15.378
Yeah.