Marketing Earns Its Seat At The Table When It Speaks Revenue with Dana Marxer

Eric Dickmann 0:31

Welcome to the Virtual CMO Podcast. I'm Eric Dickmann, your host, and today we're talking about something that sits at the center of modern marketing leadership, how CMOs align marketing to revenue and become more strategic voices inside their organizations. Joining me today is Dana Marxer. Dana has LED marketing and product teams across a range of high growth B2B companies, and brings a unique perspective as both an engineer and a marketing leader as CEO of iq. She brings a unique mix of skills as an innovative strategic leader with the analytical approach and tactical execution of an engineer. Today she's focused on helping organizations build more data-driven paths to revenue, and I'm excited for our conversation. Dana, great to have you on the show today. the timing of this conversation is really perfect. I was reading an article this week. It was, uh, in ad week and it was entitled. Revenue over brand awareness, economic worries and AI have shifted priorities for the marketing department. And I thought, boy, that's a timely article given what we're gonna be talking about today, and I'd love just to get your perspective on this. How have you seen the role of the CMO kind of evolve over the past five, 10 years?

Dana Marxer 1:49

Sure. Well, uh, first, thanks so much for having me. Uh, one of my favorite topics. So how it has evolved, it's, it's interesting because, um, depending on the size of the organization in B2B, we're talking about B2B. Um, very, very different, uh, uh, marketing, uh, function there and. Uh, you know, I always, uh, you know, me, Eric, I'm an engineer by background, and then I got into B2B marketing a very circuitous path. We won't talk about that today, but, um, but, you know, I, I loved marketing because that's where all the strategy sat. That is where all the strategy sat. And you know, I think, um, you know, back a couple decades ago, it, it was more common to see organizations look at marketing as brand, like you said, collateral design. Um, but even, even back then, it was how, how are we going to go to market and make money? Right? It was also included, especially in B2B technology companies, which has been my, my focus. Um, it was how do we package these products in a way that the market wants to buy them, wants to consume them? What is the value that they're getting from the products? And so that kind of. Positioning and, and marketing messaging was always highly strategic. Um, so I always love that. But I think, uh, I think over the last decade or so that has been more, the more common view of marketing and, you know, in smaller organizations you're always gonna start with this. With the sales leader, right? You gotta, you gotta sell to get to that critical mass to then bring on your, your marketing person. And I think once that marketing person hits the organization, that's the pivot, right? That's the pivot where you can start to grow at scale. Because I always look at marketing as, you know, if, if you're gonna invest in marketing, so you can, you can grow faster and more economically than you can just by adding more salespeople.

Marketing As Strategy And Scale

Eric Dickmann 3:59

So where do you see the biggest disconnect right now from, where marketing is kind of operating and where leadership would like them to be operating from?

Dana Marxer 4:09

When we look at that strategy, when we look at that messaging, when we look at that positioning, um, it does take a creative mind. It takes that creativity. But marketing is also an engine,

Eric Dickmann 4:22

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marxer 4:23

right? It is a repeatable process that can be optimized. And so we, you know, when I look at the, um, you know, the marketing gurus that I know, you know, and we kind of, you know, rub elbows with, they're both the creative and the process driven thinkers, right? It's how are we going to. Um, optimize our marketing tactics for the benefit of the organization, and that's when it's really important. Well, how, what is the benefit of the organization? So it's, uh, you know, if you ask all of the other executives in the leadership team, um, followers on LinkedIn is not going to be at the top of the list for, you know, a benefit to the organization. Now, we as marketers, this is the double-edged sword. We as marketers know how critical that is.

Eric Dickmann 5:18

Yes.

Dana Marxer 5:19

Know how critical the branding efforts are. Um, way back to funny story, Eric. Way back two decades ago when I first took over this B2B, global B2B marketing organization, um, I started running analytics and I said, and I used, you know, I'm gonna geek out for a second. I used the proxy variable to look at our branding activity, like when our branding activity is higher or lower, and. Use some regression analysis. And I came to the conclusion from a data based analysis that, hey, when our branding activity is higher, our lead conversion is higher.

Eric Dickmann 5:59

Hmm.

Dana Marxer 6:00

And then I go to my creative director and I said, Steve, look, when we do more branding, our conversion rates are better. And he said, Dana, we all know that.

Eric Dickmann 6:09

Hmm.

Dana Marxer 6:10

Right. We as marketers know that intuitively, but the rest of our executive team will look at the analysis and then believe it, right? They don't believe it from instinct. They believe it from the data.

Eric Dickmann 6:26

Well, and I think that's a great segue into the next point that I really wanted to drill into, which is kind of the language that we're speaking when we're talking in the organization. Because just as you said, marketing often speaks in these activity metrics, right? Well, the rest of the team, whether it's the C-suite or whether it's the folks over on the sales side. They're focused on revenue. I talk about a lot when I'm dealing with clients in these random acts of marketing where teams are so busy doing activities that they're not really looking at how those activities are really turning into outcomes that lead to revenue. So when you think about marketing teams and the CMOs, how do they need to rethink the way they're communicating to the CEO, to the CFO, to the CROs? What, what's missing in the communications right now?

Proving Brand With Data

Dana Marxer 7:16

So most importantly, and there's kind of the language we we use within the marketing team that's really important, that is activity based, so I don't wanna dismiss those indicators as really important. When we enter the leadership team, when we enter that boardroom, we need to be talking about revenue bookings, efficiency, right? Spending efficiency, conversion efficiency. Those are the things and predictability. Right. When we talk at the executive level, we need to talk about how marketing is contributing to all of those things. How marketing is contributing to overall bookings, the contribution to the pipeline, the contribution to bookings, and that is that right there is the most important first step. Secondarily, marketing knows that they impact sales velocity. Right. They know intuitively that when opportunities are marketing sourced, and we see this in our analytics all the time, when opportunities are marketing sourced, they have higher win rates, higher deal sizes, and uh, shorter cycle times.

Eric Dickmann 8:36

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marxer 8:37

And so when we're, now, that's a, that's a secondary impact, right? First we're gonna look at contribution to bookings. How is marketing filling that pipeline so that sales can close deals so that we can grow? Then there is the efficiency, right? How are we, uh, impacting the sales productivity, right? Sales productivity is so key and marketing has a huge impact on that. Then. Marketing. You know, I, I, I see, I see this evolve. It has evolved a lot in the market, but I also see it evolve in the maturity of an organization. But marketing impacts not only how we build pipeline, but how we close pipeline, how we improve, upsell, cross-sell. That's a totally different marketing strategy is into the current customer base, how we impact renewals, right? It's the entire revenue, uh, cycle that marketing needs to, when you're looking at a full marketing plan, we need to think about that whole piece, but it's always revenue and growth and efficiency.

Eric Dickmann 9:51

So thinking about some of those metrics that you just mentioned, what's the right balance between leading indicators and lagging indicators. Because you talked about some of the things around brand awareness that you said, when you invest money in brand awareness, you can definitely see an increase in deal closures, but how do you balance that out?

Dana Marxer 10:12

There are things that we're gonna focus on from a market in a marketing department that when we try to explain that to the rest of the executive team, it's gonna fall on deaf ears. I guarantee you.

Eric Dickmann 10:22

I know that feeling.

Speaking The Executive Revenue Language

Dana Marxer 10:23

I guarantee you. Right? If we start to go in, like you, you and I, as, as you know, I come from the marketing side. Um, we know how important each of those pieces are, but the outcome that's interesting. Is, how am I taking the budget that you have entrusted to marketing and giving you the maximum bookings out? So in the mar within the marketing department, we're gonna say, well, it's a, we know there's a portfolio that we know there's a mix, and so. So, you know, again, those activity metrics are all about how we optimize our marketing budgets and resources. But when we are talking to the executive level, honestly don't care.

Eric Dickmann 11:09

Yeah.

Dana Marxer 11:09

It is what is our contribution to pipeline and bookings, and how am I getting more from the marketing budget that I'm giving you? And that is where that, that optimization piece comes in and all those activity things matter when we're doing that within the marketing organization. But again, we're talking about what our executive peers care about.

Why B2B Attribution Breaks Down

Eric Dickmann 11:32

Well, I think this gets into a really interesting conversation too, about attribution, Because if you're selling a certain kind of a product, right? You run an ad, somebody clicks on the ad, they go to the website, they click the buy now button, that attribution link is pretty easy to establish. But if you are in B2B, you're selling high dollar products that have, you know, months long sales cycles, lots of different people influencing the outcome of that sale. Looking at the wide range of things you might be doing in marketing, sometimes it's very hard to attribute what made the difference in this particular sale because chances are it's a lot of things made a difference in getting that sale over the finish line. So how do you think about attribution in B2B? Because I think it's very different sometimes than when you're thinking about attribution in the B2C world.

Dana Marxer 12:22

I completely agree. And so we've been talking about how marketing executives should talk to their executive peers, and I will tell you, getting to a position where you can. Is very, very difficult. To your point, being able to do that, to say what's our contribution, what's our impact on sales velocity? There is a, um, a known chasm between the systems that are running marketing and the systems that are running sales.

Eric Dickmann 12:56

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marxer 12:56

And so, you know, you e even look at, uh, your, you know, some of the rev ops platforms out there that are Oh, and if you wanna do marketing attribution, you do that in a different system. Like you can't do it in a different system because the important thing about attribution is how much money came outta that campaign.

Eric Dickmann 13:17

Yes.

Dana Marxer 13:18

I mean that is why it is so difficult to be able to speak this way because our systems, our historic systems, have naturally prevented us from seeing what we need to see to be able to talk about it that way. And you're absolutely right, the, even within a marketing automation system, the attribution is like. I don't believe it. I don't believe that attribution. Right. Uh, you know, some of the common, won't won't name names, but you know, it's like, yeah. Our a BM system said that we, you know, we created all of these opportunities from these ad clicks. How can I validate that? Well, you can't because it's a black box. You're either gonna trust them. Or you're gonna have the system that validates that. Right? And of course, you know, you're, you're speaking our IQ world. We do that all the time. That's our, that's what we solve. Um, but it is very difficult. And, um, and the, uh, interconnection of different campaigns and the attribution models like Last touch, first touch, uh, linear attribution, total influence attribution. You know, the, the really important thing is you have to present this in a way that a marketing person can understand intuitively versus getting into all the, the, the analytics details.'cause they're complex, they're very complex. And so, you know, when you know, when you are able to ask your system what channels produce the, the most closed bookings. It's Im, it's impossible. It's impossible. It has been impossible in the past until you have this common data model that connects all the marketing activity to the sales pipeline. Yeah, right. That's the chasm is, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna say, well, I've got, I'm gonna AB test and I'm gonna look at what thing, you know, that's activity based. How can I get more, uh, opens and clicks on an email? That's all important, but you must connect the marketing activity and the attribution of your tactics to the generation of opportunities. And so, you know, I've talked about one of the chasms between the, our, uh, marketing automation system and the sales system. Even in the sales system. Okay, I'm gonna call it, I'm gonna name a name, Salesforce, right? We all know Salesforce. And still it's that, oh, well, I'm going to attribute it to the primary contact on my opportunity. And I know, uh, you know, anybody out there that has touched Salesforce and understands this marketing stuff knows that is such a, um, incomplete and often inaccurate way to tie marketing to the opportunity. Why? Because that primary contact changes. It changes, right? And the sales guy is gonna say, well, the MQL that came through and created that opportunity, uh, that's not who I'm talking to in the account. I self source this. And so having an engine that uses the business logic and doesn't, and it, and I will say it's a time-based business logic, right? And with time-based business logic. I have somebody, they came in, they mq ld, they went to the bdr, they sq ld. An opportunity was generated within 60 days. That's an attribution and it's gonna be right 98% of the time.

Eric Dickmann 17:04

Hmm.

Dana Marxer 17:05

And so it's those, it's that logic built on a unified data model that is very, you know, and a lot of companies try and do it

Eric Dickmann 17:17

Yeah.

Dana Marxer 17:18

it takes. A ton of expertise to be able to understand how the, all those things need to link together.

Eric Dickmann 17:25

Yeah.'cause it sounds like what you're saying is this isn't just a systems problem, this isn't just a data problem, it isn't just an organizational problems in many ways, it's a legacy of all of that. Against modern expectations of what management really wants to get out of these things, but with no clear process or tools to get the information that they need, that they feel they want today.

Dana Marxer 17:52

Yeah, I mean it's, it's historic. It is perpetuated by, um, by organizations that continue to be siloed. Right. You know, the, the communication between marketing and sales, we always say that it's the marketing and sales alignment that is the nirvana, and yet we don't align. And it's, you know, the, and I think it, it's, it's kind of a catch 22, right? We don't align because we don't know how.

Eric Dickmann 18:22

Well, that actually leads me to my next question that I was gonna ask. So if somebody's hearing this and saying, this all makes sense to me, but they don't exactly know where to start, I guess my question would be, what's your advice? Where would they start and where do you get the requests coming in? Is it coming in from marketing leadership or is it coming in from other executive leadership that says, we, we need you to come help us solve this problem? Who's making the request?

Dana Marxer 18:50

Um, it comes from, primarily th three different roles. Um, it will come from the, the marketing person when they recognize they're being asked for certain metrics that they can't produce.

Eric Dickmann 19:07

Mm-hmm.

Dana Marxer 19:07

Right. And then it's like, uh, I don't, I don't know how to produce that. Let's see, we went to five trade shows last year. What did we get from each of those? I have no idea. Right. And so, so that's, that's one area when it comes from the marketing team, because they're being asked for, so. Um, and you know, or you have a very seasoned CMO that, that, that knows I need this, you know, uh, complete analytic system involved. Let come in and do it. The CRO or the sales leadership role will come in and ask for it. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna focus kind of on the marketing side is I don't know what marketing's giving me. Right. I, I, you know, I, I, they're telling me that I've got all these leads, but I, I don't see my pipeline on the back end growing as much as the top of funnel. Where, where is the disconnect right now? The, the other piece of the sales side is all around the predictability. Right is I have to hit my number. I have to, to uh, uh, create that confidence in the board that when I sign up for a target, I'm gonna deliver on the target I can't miss. Right? This happened, especially in PE-backed high growth B2B companies, right? They, they wanna know that they're going to hit their number, and whether they're gonna hit their number doesn't start at stage one opportunity. It starts way back in the top of funnel. Where am I getting this fed Into my pipeline with enough volume and velocity and support that I'm gonna hit my number in Q4. Right. And so that's this, that's the design of the whole, and that's our big mantra as you know, from from IQ, is it's the design coming from an engineer, it's the design of your growth engine, right? And so another role that that, um, that we typically interact with is the CEO and CFO.

Eric Dickmann 21:15

Yeah. Makes sense.

Dana Marxer 21:16

So, especially if the CEO has a technical or engineering background, because I hear this all the time, it's like, this is the engineer's approach to the growth function. I'm like, absolutely it is, right? I mean, think of a manufacturing line. We're we're manufacturing closed bookings,

Eric Dickmann 21:32

Hmm.

Who Demands Revenue Visibility

Dana Marxer 21:33

right? And we have some raw materials, we have some input, we have a process. We're gonna control that process so that we know if we get out of our design limit, we're in trouble. And we can tell you, you are in trouble way, way early enough to change the outcome in the future. And so when we look at what resources are we go gonna need, how much do we need to spend in marketing? How many sales reps do we need? How many BDRs do we need? We see a lot of that type of. Those types of questions coming from the CFO and CEO role, especially that fp and a and that, hey, I'm gonna give this, this, um, this plan to the board. How do I know that we're gonna hit it?

Eric Dickmann 22:24

Well, that's interesting too because. When businesses have a problem, they don't always know what solution to ask for to fix that problem. So when you deal with prospects for a rev ops solution, do they come to you and say, Dana, we're looking for a rev ops solution for this problem? Or do they say, I've got this problem, I don't have visibility, I need this fixed. Do you offer something that fixes it? So do they. They come with the pain point knowing that they have a problem, but not knowing what it is. They'll fix it.

Dana Marxer 22:57

Yeah, so the, the rev ops question is a really interesting one. The market understanding of rev ops is evolving and it's evolved a lot faster over the last 24 months. Right. So it used to be rev op, oh well, rev ops, that's sales ops and marketing ops. It really, when, when we think about rev ops, and I think where the market understanding of Rev Ops is going is no, rev ops is all around the generation of revenue for the function, right? It's, it's go to market operations. And so, so it really depends, um, on the understanding of what that term rev ops really means. Um, very rarely to your point, do we have somebody come to us and say, um, can you fix my rev ops?

Eric Dickmann 23:45

Right.

Dana Marxer 23:46

know, they'll come to us with a problem. We don't have predictability. Our, you know, we, uh, we can't get visibility into our marketing contribution. Um, you know, we don't know how to properly, uh, staff our sales and BDR team. Um, what should my targets be? How many MQL do I need every month? Um, you know, those are the things that are, are the problems. The solution is. You know, an end-to-end rev ops machine. And so, so to your point, you know, and the, the funny thing is, you know, we, we get into so many organizations that are trying, you know, to say, okay, well we're start, we're starting to define our process. And I'm saying, um, every process is different, but every process is the same.

Eric Dickmann 24:40

Mm.

Dana Marxer 24:40

Right. Every process is the same, and if you find yourself in a position where you're defining your process from scratch, you're wasting time. This is an issue. This, this is a process that has been developed over and over and over again. No matter what systems you're using, you know, just overlay a template, you're gonna be 95% there within a few days.

Eric Dickmann 25:06

Yes.

Dana Marxer 25:06

Um, now the, the, the flip side of that is you gotta have everybody buy into the process. So there is a little balance there, you know, in feeling like everybody's contributed to that process. Definitions.

Eric Dickmann 25:19

Yes. Well, you know what excites me about this and what I really love about it is I'm a big believer in marketing, especially the CMO role as being a strategist you're moving beyond just reporting, right? Reporting what has happened, reporting activity, and you're really moving into influence. And I think this is kind of what separates, CMOs from just being functional leaders, right? You're moving into strategy, you're now positioning marketing as a lever in the organization that is really responsible for moving the revenue number as opposed to just, the brand awareness and activity exercises that I think a lot of CMOs get stuck wearing. But it's something that we all know, especially in tough economies, are things that can quickly be cut out.

Dana Marxer 26:05

Yeah. Um, and I, I love your use of the term lever because you know, there is, there is reporting on what has happened, right? Which, when you look at, at sales analytics tools and marketing analytics tools, that's what you're gonna find. You're gonna find. Show me what's happened, right? You can see trends, right? Is this, is this metric going up or down? The question is what is it suppo? What is the number supposed to be? And because we don't have that design of the revenue process, we don't know whether up. Is good enough whether we care about that thing going up, it might be way more important for a different lever to go up, right? And so when you look at the design, then you can, you can move the levers and run scenarios, right? It's, it's okay, how am I gonna gonna hit the bookings target for this particular revenue stream? Is it more important for me to focus on my. Stage conversion rate and stage three, or is it more important for me to give some money to marketing and get some more leads in? What is the most efficient way for me to produce the bookings I'm being asked to produce? And so the it's, it is absolutely moving beyond reporting and it's moving into the design of the revenue function. And we were just talking about alignment with marketing and sales. Well. That's where the line alignment happens, right? It's not marketing's producing something and sales is producing something, we're producing something together. And that's when we design that whole process together. Everybody knows exactly what they need to contribute at every step. And if they don't, it's gonna affect the ultimate, um, success of the organization.

Rev Ops Defined By Outcomes

Eric Dickmann 27:56

Well, just like that article that I referenced at the top of our discussion in Adweek, which I will link in the show notes. Tying marketing activities back to revenue is clearly something that is becoming increasingly important, especially in tough economic conditions. And so, you know, as we kinda wrap up our conversation here today, if you had to leave listeners with two or three takeaways on how they could start to, better align marketing teams to revenue, what would they be?

Dana Marxer 28:25

Well, I think the most important thing is you have to connect marketing activities, sales pipeline. Otherwise you'll never be able to do it. Um, so, so there is some, um, there is some system support that needs to be there in order for us to have a basis for this language to begin with. Um, so, so, so that's important. There has to be that. That connection between marketing activity and sales productivity. Um, the next is, as I was just mentioning, you know, design this function together. Right. It is, you know, because it's so typical, we get the finger pointing, right? You're not giving me enough leads. You're not following up on my leads, and that has to go away. That is completely unproductive. Um, time wasted. Uh, what we need to do is, I'm giving you these, what happened to'em? What happened to this cohort? Were they effective? Were they good for sales? Did sales progress them? Did they close? Okay, well what about this other cohort? Well, if there's another cohort that is, is performing better from a pipeline and bookings contribution perspective, let's shift our marketing spend because marketing has to close deals, otherwise you, you know, let's all go home. Um, so, so there is this, this alignment, um, and I think. You know, rethinking the way we show up in the leadership meeting, right? I mean, like, don't bring in followers and leads and clicks. I will tell you that, you know, I've heard so many times other executives in that situation and they say. I don't, you know, we don't run payroll based on followers. Right. And so, and, and so that is made. It's not, I'm not dis discounting how important those things are. I'm just saying that that's not what your executive peers will value. It's not what your executive peers will understand. And so, you know, the, the always come in to the meetings with something that is related to revenue, to bookings, to efficiency, to contribution to sales velocity. Those are the things that, and then that's where the, the discussion becomes productive.

Eric Dickmann 31:07

You know, I'm chuckling Dana because I've been in these meetings and I've presented a wide range of marketing statistics and you are a hundred percent correct. With sales leadership especially, they don't care about a lot of those metrics. All they care about is. What leads have you delivered to me today? Right? How is this affecting my pipeline? You know, how many of the leads that you've generated are actually closing new business? I, I've been at that table. I've seen the expressions on their face and, and you're a hundred percent right. And you know, I've really appreciated our conversation today because it's a reminder of how the CMO role really is evolving. But before we wrap up today. If listeners wanna learn more about Rev ops, what you're working on, about what IQ can provide, where should they go? How could they best get in touch with you and learn more about what you're doing?

Dana Marxer 31:55

Sure, yeah, just, just go to the website, a y eq.com. Um, and that explains what we're doing. It explains how we are approaching this problem with speed and efficiency, right? So, you know, don't. Don't like throw up your hands and say, we don't have the resources to build this. We, I don't have the expertise. The reality is most B2B companies don't. And so that's why we've done this in an automated fashion. So it's economical, it's fast, um, and it's validated, right? We've got a lot of really smart people that have done this over and over. And so, um, we, we love to, uh, to help, especially companies that are. Um, you know, under pressure for growth and efficiency, that's, that's really where we, where, where we shine.

Eric Dickmann 32:47

That's terrific. And I'd also love for you to plug your podcast because you're a podcaster as well, and have a great show. Tell listeners where they can hear that I.

Dana Marxer 32:55

Sure. It's called IQ answers. Our focus on, our podcast is. Around all of these different levers, it's all around B2B growth. So marketing is a huge piece, of course, sales, strategy, customer success, the whole, uh, cycle. uh, You can find us on, on Apple or Spotify

From Reporting To Revenue Design

Eric Dickmann 33:14

That's great, Dana. I'll also have all that linked up in the show notes. Thank you so much for spending the time with us today. I've really enjoyed this discussion.

Dana Marxer 33:22

Likewise, Eric, thank you so much for having me.

Eric Dickmann 33:27

Thank you for joining us on this episode of The Virtual CMO Podcast. For more episodes, go to fiveechelon. com slash podcast to subscribe through your podcast player of choice. And if you'd like to develop consistent lead flow and a highly effective marketing strategy, visit fiveechelon. com to learn more about our virtual CMO consulting services.