Oct. 31, 2021
Digital Disruption and Rethinking Business Models with Terry Jones
In episode 103, host Eric Dickmann interviews Terry Jones. Terry is a travel and IT veteran, serial entrepreneur, speaker, and author of "On Innovation" and "Disruption Off." He is also known as the Digital Disruptor who founded five startups with two billion-dollar IPOs -Kayak and Travelocity.
He has served on 17 corporate boards and his reputation has established him as a thought leader on innovation and disruption. As a speaker, author, venture capitalist, and board member, Terry has been helping companies use the tools and techniques he has developed to keep succeeding in our fast-changing world. He has presented in over 25 countries to more than 300 companies, helping companies keep up with the changing trends.
In addition to writing and speaking, Terry currently serves as a Director for SonicWall and is Chairman of the Board for the Camping and Education Foundation.
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/digital-disruption-business-models-s7ep3/
Send us your questions or comments
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WEBVTT
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Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
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In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business.
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Hey, Terry, welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm so glad you could join us today.
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I'm excited about this interview.
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I've been thinking about it for awhile because we're going to get a chance to talk about a wide variety of topics, everything from startups and marketing to digital disruption and rethinking business models and, you know, kind of, as we get started today, I just love it.
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If you could give the audience a real brief history of where you come from and your real claim to fame.
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Well, you know I was a history major in college and I thought I was going to Vietnam.
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And luckily I got rejected from the draft.
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I would've gone if I had to, and so I didn't know what I was going to do.
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I had no job and nobody's hiring history majors, and my college roommate, his dad was a pilot for TWA airlines.
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He said, I got a free pass.
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And if I go to grad school, I'm going to lose that pass.
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So he said, I'm going around the world for a year.
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And so three of us spent a year going around.
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Which is a great postgraduate education learn a lot, came back.
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And I told my dad, I wanted to get in the travel business.
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He wasn't thrilled.
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He just paid for college education and I became a travel agent.
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And six months in, my manager said, let's go do a startup.
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That was my first startup.
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We started a travel agency focused on Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union.
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And in five years we built that into the 50th largest travel agency in the United States.
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Okay.
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Oh.
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And then I got interested in computing, and I jumped to a company that sold us our back office computer that was doing ticketing and itineraries, and reports, and that kind of stuff.
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And that company got sold to American Airlines.
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So suddenly I was in American Airlines, it's been 18 years, they're moving up in marketing, and IT, eventually became CIO.
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So I was CIO at American Airlines and I lost my hair doing that, managing all those computers.
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We had a little online product called Easy Sabre.
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Then we've been on AOL and CompuServe and Prodigy, and you could make a booking, but you couldn't get a ticket.
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You had to go to a travel agent to get a ticket, cause travel agents were our distribution.
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And the travel agents finally woke up after about six years and said, you know, you're selling bullets to the enemy.
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You really should shut that down.
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You don't want to do that.
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And Bob Crandall, our CEO said, No, we're going to keep it, but give it to Jones.
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He's over in IT, he used to be a travel agent.
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We'll hide it over there.
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Okay.
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Well, I got it and it was 1996.
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The first thing I did was put it on the internet.
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And it took off like a weed in the spring.
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It was just those tremendous demand.
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So I did that for, I eventually said, I don't want to be CIO anymore, I want to run Travelocity.
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And they said, oh, it's only 12 people, you know, it's kind of stiff.
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I said, no, I think it'll be big.
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So eventually I ran that full time.
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We spun it out of Saber, we took it public, and I ran it for six years.
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And then Saber eventually decided to buy it back because they thought it was critical to their future.
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I left because I was pretty sure they would screw it up, which they did.
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We took it public for 1.2 billion.
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They eventually sold it to Expedia for 280 million.
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Oh, wow.
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So they screwed it up because they that's a story in itself.
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And then I went on and I was a speaker and an author, and I was working at a VC firm and we had the idea of vertical search and travel.
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Why isn't there just a search firm?
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And the VC, a great guy, Joel Cutler said I'll fund it.
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And we went out and find a great CEO and CTO, and that became kayak.com.
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And I was a chairman there for eight years.
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And we took that company public, and then we sold it to Priceline for 1,000,000,008.
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So that was another fun run.
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Oh, I bet.
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I've done another startup in AI.
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That one ran for about four years and failed, didn't work.
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So you know, I've had five startups now and two unicorns.
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And today, I'm an investor and a speaker.
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I speak on innovation and digital disruption.
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I've got two books, one is Disruption Off here.
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It doesn't look too good with a green screen, and it dissolves.
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I help startups, I was just on the phone with a travel startup a little while ago last hour working with them, they're just about to launch.
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So I've had a lot of different careers and it's been a ball, and I'm still learning and doing new things.
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It sounds like it you've had a chance to be part of some companies that are really household names.
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And what's interesting to me is you know, working with startups today, and I know in my business, I work with a lot of young companies too.
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Not everybody realizes that they have something that is going to end up being disruptive.
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When you first kind of took your product to the internet, took Travelocity out there.
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Did you really see the disruptive potential of that product, or was it later on that really it kind of came to be?
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Well, we didn't think it would be as big as it became.
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Yeah.
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We knew that people liked to book online and we have proof of that because we'd had Easy Saber around for years and we had maybe 300,000, 400,000 customers.
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But you know, pretty soon with Travelocity had 40 million people using it.
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Um, We didn't have that idea and Wall Street did not believe it at all.
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We played to empty rooms.
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So when we went public, I mean the stock held up, but they didn't think it would be big.
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Everybody saw, oh, it's going to be E-toys, it's going to be E-bay.
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It's going to be shopping, it's going to be something else, or the delivery companies that were very big.
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I'm trying to remember the name of the ones that went bust.
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Travel is the largest part of e-commerce.
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It's harder than the next three categories combined.
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It's so big that they don't even put it in the list anymore.
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It's just separate from retail, which is retail.
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So no, we didn't know it'd be that big, but we knew it would be.
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And it just took off like a weed in the spring because what had happened, remember people used to book their own travel, pretty much airline travel because prices were fixed, every airline charged the same price.
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Then with deregulation, traveling has doubled the number of them because you needed to go to a place to get priced.
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And that's why we put computers in travel agents, but those agents were adding a lot of value.
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They're just listening and typing, and giving you a price.
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They weren't the people who explained what it's like to go to the Riviera and those people are still around, but the people who just typed they're all gone because customer said, well, we'd rather do it ourselves, it's easier.
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And that's why it took off.
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It's a business where the price is very volatile.
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You only do it a couple times a year.
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It's pretty easy to get online and you know, you could see a picture of a hotel.
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Which a consumer could never do.
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They didn't have the hotel book, they couldn't see the pictures, they didn't know what it was going to look like.
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They relied on the agent to explain it to them.
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And sometimes the agent just might've distorted it.
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Well, I also find it interesting that you talk about the fact that it got spun off into a separate company and then later on was reacquired.
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And I see so often that sometimes larger companies don't seem to know what they have.
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That sometimes innovation inside a larger company, just can't come to fruition because they're too hooked on their established business models.
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so was that the fact that they bought it back
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They're addicted to it.
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Yeah.
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You know my first book, which is still out and it's available on Amazon in paperback and in the audio book in Kindle, it's called On Innovation, and iit's a 72, 3 page chapters.
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It's a very fast read, it's very snackable.
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And it talks about culture and team, and funding, you know, the typical topics.
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But there's a whole section in there about how Travelocity managed to survive inside America.
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And it was having our own culture, moving out of the building, having a separate budget, really, they allowed me to treat it as a separate business.
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And a lot of people tried to kill it and we were losing money and they were making money.
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And they wanted the money, our money, so they could make more money, and the chairman protected us.
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So it's very hard for large companies and I've been lecturing about this for years and I go to companies to try to teach them how to do it.
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Cause it's hard.
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It's like a new plant that you plan in the spring.
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You gotta put it in the greenhouse, you got to protect them from the snow and once it grows up, then you can decide where you're going to plant it.
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Am I going to spin it off?
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Am I going to make a division?
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At REI, the head of e-commerce told me, when e-commerce grew up, we disbanded the internet division and poured it into the organization and everybody was responsible for it.
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And that's the way it should be in retail today.
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But in the beginning they had to keep it separate because people wanted to kill it.
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Walmart does a famous story that Walmart for a while, put walmart.com and all the plastic shopping bags and the retail stores threw those bags away because they didn't want the.com to succeed.
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Really?
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Yeah, because it competed with them.
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They thought, instead of saying, Hey, we're all in one company here.
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So it is very hard to do and on innovation can help you learn how to do it.
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Well, and I also see and read stories where a situation like what you described happens, you build up a company, you end up exiting the company, something happens to it.
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And then founders oftentimes go out and recreate that company all over again.
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And did something similar with KAYAK, but it wasn't the same.
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When you decided to go into that next business.
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What did you see that had changed that made you sort of pivot your thinking in a way to find that open market space?
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Well, that was kind of what we were talking about before we went on the air is you know, how do you penetrate it in a saturated market?
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Yeah.
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We had a dinner one night and it was the former number two at Orbit, the former number two to Expedia, and me to the CEO of Travelocity and VC.
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And we talked about the fact that you know, most e-commerce companies only converted at 5% of arrivals into sales.
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Now, if Walmart had a big back door that was 95%, the size of the front door, and 95% of the people walked out without nothing, their stock would crash.
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But in e-commerce is like, oh, that's okay, which is crazy.
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But that's the way it is.
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And we say, well, where the hell do those people go?
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Most of them were using us as a search engine, but we're more comfortable buying directly from the airline or hotel.
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So we said, well, why don't we just create a site that does that?
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A site that searches everything, but when you click, you buy direct.
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And consumers loved it because they saw all the comparative prices, but they got what they believe was safety and security that you weren't dealing with an agent if their flight got screwed.
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You know they weren't that the airline wasn't saying, well, you'll have to call Expedia.
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They liked the idea.
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And we also differentiated that ithe product can have a very high virality because it was screamingly fast.
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It was way faster than the competition.
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And you know, microseconds make sales on the internet.
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And we also had all the filters, you know?
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You want first-class, you want coach?
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What time do you want to go?
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What time do you want to get back?
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I'll see all that stuff could be nobody else had.
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So we were differentiated, we were fast, and we looked at what the customer wanted and that's exactly what they wanted.
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Well, it's interesting to me about what you said there is a lot of times people go into a certain segment of a business.
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You were in travel, but they look at it so holistically as opposed to looking at.
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what you have just described which was a very specific niche, you know?
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We could provide a product that does searching, but lets people hook it through the platforms that they're most comfortable with.
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When you advise startups and younger companies today, do you see that as a problem that they're looking at things too holistically, they're not sort of looking at where they can find that niche?
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You don't have to change the world.
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Look, Apple did not invent the MP3 player, the cellphone or the watch.
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They're the leading seller of all those now.
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They just made it better
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Yes.
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Way better to use.
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So you know, you can win by disrupting experience, Apple disrupted Nokia, Spotify disrupted Apple, Uber disrupted Yellow Cab, you know?
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How did they do that?
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By changing either the quality of the product or the way we use the product.
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So kind of to change the world and most inventions are built on the backs of other inventors.
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So Travelocity was built on the saber system, which was in travel agents.
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We just put a consumer coat of paint on it and made it consumer-friendly.
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KAYAK was built on those same engines.
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You know, but said, Hey, we're going to do it a different way.
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And we're going to connect directly to the airlines to make a booking.
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Airbnb said, well, there are always hotels out there, you'd call them vacation rentals.
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Let's make it easy for people to book those, they already exist.
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Uber did not change the experience of sitting in a limo.
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I went once and spoke to the American limo company in the early days of Hulu, and the first question was, how do we compete with Uber?
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I said get some bloody software.
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Yeah, of course you have the drivers, you have the brand, you don't have any software.
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got to call you, you send me this paper confirmation I, can't find your guy at the airport, he's holding up this piece of his daughter's homework with my name on it.
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Come on! It's the experience all you have to do.
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And people want to know what they were going to be charged, right?
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You know, they didn't want that
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Yeah.
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they wanted to know the price upfront and when you're going to be here.
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And where I can find you, and what your rating is, right.
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Are you a good driver, bad driver, I mean look, I was working with a startup earlier today and they have a product.
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I won't tell you what it is, but it can be inserted in someone else's website in one line of code.
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And it really changed the experience.
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And I'll tell you my last startup changed the user experience, but we made the hotel really change their website, and nobody wanted to change it even though they could get more smell.
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We got a list of things to do.
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We said, Hey, it's one line of code, try it out.
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They might have done it.
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So you gotta make it drop dead easy.
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I mean think about how Salesforce was successful because their product was so cheap that I could sit in the sales department and buy it, and put it on my expense account.
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I didn't have to argue with IT.
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I just paid$25 a month and I could use Salesforce.
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It was super cheap on the individual license basis that allowed them to sell from a boiler room, right?
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And get people directly.
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And then it became a behemoth cause they snuck in without having to go through the gatekeeper.
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Sometimes, that's really important because if you're going to sell through the gatekeeper, he's gonna not let you in.
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His purchasing job is to not let you buy stock.
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Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast.
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Now back to the podcast.
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Well and you know, when we talk about things like disruption, you know we're talking about disruptive technologies, new ideas that create some really innovative things in the marketplace, but we also have all these external disruptions, right?
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We're living through a 2020, which was COVID locks down, changes in the economy, and this year it's been even more disruption in different ways, chip shortages, whatnot.
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So when
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I just got off the phone with a board of the CEO of a company I'm on the board of, and we were talking about chip shorts.
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you know, he made his numbers for the quarter, but he said, I don't know what I'm going to do in the fourth quarter.
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And think about it, one of the issues is everything today wants to be cloud connected.
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Everybody looks at Tesla and says, look at how they delight their customer.
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Tesla is not the best, most reliable car out there, but everybody loves it because like I have one, I get new a new car every month.
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So you're seeing connected trackers, connected thermometers, connected everything, which means everything has to have a chip in it that didn't have a chip in it, and we're running out of chips.
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So, you know, it's been interesting to watch the reaction to COVID because I, for years lecture on disruption and I get people to try to see the disruption is coming and they don't believe it.
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Well now they all believe it because it was a burning platform is a do or die moment.
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There was a major retailer at a 10 month program to get to a curbside delivery.
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They did it in two days.
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Hmmm.
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So you know, the boss won't forget that.
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Yes.
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You know people are making decisions, breaking the glass, getting it done because they had to.
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Well, that's an attitude you should try to have all the time.
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Do you think that's the key to really being effective when disruptions happen?
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