Nov. 7, 2021
How to Grab People’s Attention with Lee Wochner
In episode 104, host Eric Dickmann interviews Lee Wochner. Lee is highly regarded as a strategic leader and facilitator able to help people grow and change. With more than 25 years of organizational consulting both independently and with Counterintuity, Lee has worked with non-profits, government agencies, Fortune 500 companies, and small businesses.
Counterintuity is a full-service marketing agency headquartered in Los Angeles. Since 2007, Counterintuity’s propulsive marketing approach has helped catapult hundreds of small businesses and nonprofits throughout California.
Lee holds a BA in Literature and Language from Stockton University and a Masters in professional writing from the University of Southern California, where he taught graduate writing for 10 years.
He is also a frequent guest speaker and is recognized by the State of California as a “California Thinker.”
For more information and access to the resources mentioned in this episode, visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/how-grab-peoples-attention-s7ep4/
Send us your questions or comments
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WEBVTT
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Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
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In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business.
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Hey Lee, welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm so glad he could join us today.
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Eric, it's great to be here with you.
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Thanks for having me.
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You know, we're recording this in August.
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Good grief I can't believe this summer has gone by so quickly.
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But you know, we live in a time where there is just so much going on and we're going to get a chance to talk about really how you get people's attention.
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And I think this is such a relevant topic for anybody who's in marketing anybody's business, because really we're trying to get people's attention or trying to get the right people's attention, and it's just such a relevant and timely topic.
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How did you sort of get started with the agency?
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Well, that's an interesting question.
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So my background is principally as a writer.
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I have a Master's in Professional Writing from University of Southern California.
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But I was also raised in a family of entrepreneurs.
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And so my father had a business, a couple of businesses.
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My grandfather, my brother, my brother-in-law, et cetera.
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And so although I was writing and directing sometimes for clients, I'm also a stage director.
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I started to get pulled into doing some marketing and then my number one vendor became a close friend and a trusted ally.
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We merged our companies and she has a background in marketing and advertising.
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So we've been doing this together.
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We're in our 14th year and she's terrific, she's really smart, and every day is a joy.
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Oh, that's so great.
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When you can partner with somebody and you each bring something unique to the business.
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And I love that you have that creative side too.
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Do you still write on your own?
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Do you write books or plays, or anything like that?
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Well, I'm a playwright and I had a play up.
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So I've been getting produced.
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My first play produced was when I was in high school at age 14.
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And I had a play produced in June on Zoom.
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It was written for Zoom, it ran on Zoom, and the interesting thing Eric was I've had productions around the country and other countries before, but I've never had a simultaneous international production.
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And so people tuned in from across Europe, the UK, across the United States, all at the same time to watch the show.
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And it was like, this is kind of cool because you know in the theater you have one location and people have to come to, and Zoom of course can be all over the world simultaneously.
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And that was a unique experience.
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I'm curious, how did you get the word out about such a unique kind of production?
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Cause that's not even something I would think to look for.
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How did you publicize it and get people interested?
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Facebook
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Yeah.
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Twitter, certainly my blog, notifying everybody I knew around the world having the cast and crew do the same thing.
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Same as you would market almost anything digitally anymore, except we didn't do an ad spend.
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Interesting, You know, I think you talk about a play or something, I think about the days of the old west, right?
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Where you had a saloon and a theater or whatnot, and somebody was coming to town, and so they'd slap up a poster on the wall and you know, people would walk by and say, oh, I've got to go this Friday because so-and-so is coming to town to sell their hair tonic or whatever it might be, you know?
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We've come a long way, know?
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From a poster on the wall to having to deal with all of these different channels, to be able to get the word out.
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When you sort of look at where you started the business and where you are today, has it gotten more complex?
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Has it gotten easier?
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What do you see as the state of things today?
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I think the state of things is that you have enormous opportunity because now you can connect with people around the globe or around the corner, depending on what your targeting is, more easily than ever before, right?
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My first job at age 14, again, I worked at a daily newspaper and I still have a soft spot for daily newspapers.
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But think about how that used to work.
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That you would buy a full-page ad for$60,000.
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It was irrelevant to most of the people reading the newspaper, so right away there went a whole bunch of your ad spend, right?
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And if you're buying classified ads, which is what really sustained newspapers for decades, you had to anticipate that people were going to sit there and pick through all the classified ads to find what was relevant to them.
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And most of it wasn't relevant to them.
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And now we flipped the funnel and we go, here's what we're putting out, here's who it's right for, and here's how we identify them, and try to get them to see those ads where they are because now all the digital advertising is targeted.
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And so when you take that perspective and you apply that to 2021, I just think it's better.
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Obviously it's better.
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it's more interesting.
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In terms of consumer perspective, I'm not inundated with the draws that doesn't apply to me, right?
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I don't get a whole bunch of junk mail anymore.
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I don't get all this other stuff.
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And instead, what I get is I get advertising that has correctly identified me as the possible consumer.
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That's interesting too and timely because certainly Apple has been in the news quite a bit with some of their privacy policies IOS, and you know, Facebook has been kind of upset about that because of how it changed their model a little bit.
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But that's not really going away.
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People will continue to figure out ways to find that target audience.
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Have you seen any real impacts of that yet in business and your client spend?
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Well, the, the landscape is constantly shifting, right?
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And there's a difference between organic and paid.
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And so we'll see what happens.
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What we don't realize is that we're still in the early days of the internet.
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And I'll take you back to when I was in high school and I had an IBM TRS 80 level 2, a Trash 80.
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A Trash 80, yep.
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first, A first computer.
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And here's how you use to load memory into it.
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If you're going to play a game or something, it came with a cassette recorder, you had to buy it separately, a cassette player.
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And you would load in a tape and you would type B load for binary load and then I would go to school.
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And I would come home for lunch, and it would finally stop loading that cassette, and I flip it over and type B load for the other side and then go back to school.
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So it would take you know, six hours to load whatever the heck it was loading, and then you would get home and you would play whatever game.
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And then you would lose in 10 minutes and then you'd have to start all over.
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And I was on BBS is at the time, but bulletin board services, nobody remembers that BBS is.
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So, meanwhile, Eric here in August at 21, you and I are in this space together, this virtual space.
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We are at the universe at the same time and we're convening over the internet.
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Yes.
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And because we're wired to adapt, we take it for granted.
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We, don't really have the appreciation for the tools we have, and what you and I both know, certainly, because look what you're doing here with this podcast, you and I both know that the sky's the limit as far as what we can do with these things.
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Absolutely.
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I mean the amount of change, the amount of opportunity that we have, especially in marketing is incredible.
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You know, you mentioned junk mail, you know things that would come to your mailbox.
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I think we've all seen you know just the decrease in spending over COVID in general.
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But it's kinda dried up.
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I just don't get the same amount of offers.
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You know, credit card offers used to come almost daily.
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That kind of stuff has dried up the real estate ads that used to come all the time, a lot of that is dried up.
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And because people are realizing that these digital tools are so impactful and they can reach the right audience where that, like you said, spending$60,000 on a newspaper ad to blanket everybody, including a lot of people that aren't interested in your message at all.
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Yeah.
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And look at how look at how slowly things used to be in the quote unquote good old days.
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So I grew up in a very rural area.
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I read a lot of comic books, I still read a lot of comic books.
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And the way we comic book fans would meet each other was a letters page and the letters page would print your name and your address.
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And I had some letters printed and when I would see somebody else where I was, I would write to them and we would get to meet, right?
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Well, now I have friends principally around, I know people all around the world, but I have a bunch of friends in the UK and in Europe because of our mutual appreciation of what I think is the world's greatest rock and roll band, that's pear ooVoo.
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And so now we've formed these real friendships because we underst we get it, right?
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Yeah.
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We're able to find each other and connect around the shared interest.
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That applies to marketing, that applies to anything you're trying to do if you're trying to improve the world.
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I have a client, God bless them in New York right now, who they're rushing a whole bunch of reliefs to Haiti, right?
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So partly how they're able to do that is because we have the internet.So you know, the internet has a lot of potential for us and we have some problems we need to address here to improve life on this planet over the next 30 years.
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And I think we have the tools to do it.
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We absolutely do.
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And you know on this podcast, we talk a lot about the importance of identifying your niche, that group of people that you relate to.
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So you've got your comic book fans, your rock and roll fans, but as a business too, right, we've got to figure out what is the right niche for us to go after.
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And I know with your agency with Counterintuity, you specifically go after nonprofits and governmental agencies, if I understand that correctly.
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Explain to me a little bit about why you focused in on that niche versus just helping any business under the sun.
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So we do have other sorts of businesses in our client portfolio.
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But you are correct.
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We principally work with nonprofits and government agencies.
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My partner and I are interested in the social good, trying to make a positive impact on the world around us.
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And we bring a lot of expertise.
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I mean, throughout the history of this company and even before we've both worked in nonprofit, we both headed nonprofits.
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I currently sit on three boards.
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And so we bring a lot of expertise to that.
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And then there is a partnership between government agencies and nonprofits.
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I remember many years ago when the first George Bush was president and he talked about the thousand points of light, what he was really talking about was social organizations and nonprofits who could work with the government to make positive change.
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And I think he was right about that.
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And so whether it's here in Los Angeles with people we work with or the many clients we have across the country and in New York who were in nonprofit, we bring a lot of expertise, a lot of insight, and they're trying to impact positive change and it's thrilling to work with them.
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So the reason we did that is it's part of our brand positioning, but also it's where we think we bring a lot of expertise.
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And what I really love about what you said there is, you know, when companies are trying to figure out what their niche is, they have to look at themselves and say, what do we authentically stand for?
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What do we believe?
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What are our values?
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And then don't we want to sort of serve people who share that common set of values, that common set of interests, that sounds like exactly what you've done in terms of the clients that you're serving.
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So our core values posted on the walls here at the office.
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I'm here at our office today.
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There are four of us and we have staggered work shifts as everybody does during COVID, right?
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But there are four of us in the office today.
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When you walk in, you'll see our core values, which are, creative, strategic, driven, precise, heartfelt, and collaborative
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Yeah.
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And they're also on our website.
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And so we are collaborative people, we want to work with other good partners.
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And it's interesting to me that I'm a theater person and not, let's say a novelist, right?
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Novelists work by themselves.
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I'm not guy.
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Creativity, you should bring to problem solving and to having fun, and making things interesting so they stand out.
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You obviously want to be strategic.
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You want to be driven towards success and manifesting the change that you can do.
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It has to be precise, meaning you got it right.
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And it has to be heartfelt, it has to come from a good place.
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And those are our core values.
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And it's interesting, and you'll relate to this.
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When, we get a lead, when someone comes to us, of course we're doing a mutual assessment.
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Hmm.
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They're trying to figure out if we're the right fit for them and we're trying to figure out if they're the right fit for us.
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That's so important, right?
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I think a lot of companies, especially younger stage companies, when they first enter into the market, you know, any lead is a good lead, right?
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We'll take business wherever we can get it.
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And you can quickly be in a position where you're doing all these things, supporting all of these customers, that aren't really a good fit for either your product or service, or the values of your company.
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And unless you sort of start to niche down and say, okay, thanks for coming to us, but you're probably not the right fit for us.
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You could end up going down a lot of tangents.
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Right.
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And while doing that, you simultaneously have to be careful not to be no oriented.
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You really want to be open to opportunity.
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And the ways that people get stuck is procrastination comes from not knowing what to do.
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That's one way to get stuck.
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And then the other thing is to constantly find yourself running down rabbit holes that you really didn't belong in.
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So it's good to know who you are, what you do, who you do it for, and then from there to embrace the opportunity, to open up optionality, and to inspire creativity.
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And if you can do those things, everything seems possible.
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Yeah.
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And I'm sure if you're working with nonprofits and governmental agencies, there's a lot that you have to factor in in terms of the current climate that we're living in, right?
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There's a lot of political upheaval, there's a lot of social change, environmental issues that are going on.
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And I'm sure many of these organizations are very concerned about how they fit into all of that.
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Do you find that that's really an essential part of how you develop the marketing strategies, is authentic to these various social issues and causes?
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Well, authenticity is a given.
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You have to be authentic.
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Anybody who thinks they can hide their identity in the internet age is fooling themselves.
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Um, and so while authenticity is a given, we always make sure that we understand what's authentic.
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And so we start with a client,we'll challenge all the assumptions in a really friendly, upbeat way.
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But we have a process that starts with asking great, reportorial questions.
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who, what, where, how,
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Yeah.
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Who are you?
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What do you do?
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How do you do it?
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When do you do it?
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Who do you do it for?
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How do you do it?
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All of those things.
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And interestingly, you know, you get into positioning, right?
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Developing a positioning statement.
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Here's who this organization is and here's who it does it for.
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And you get to that by impaneling people and having this conversation, a free floating conversation that is actually grounded a process.And what you find is there was already a lot of consensus in the room, but they've never expressed it.
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They hadn't shared the consensus.
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And so our job in a way is to kind of draw out the facts, make sure that they see their participation in those facts, put them up on the wall, whether it's in person or virtual.
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And then they go, Yeah.
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that is us.
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That's how you've captured us.
00:16:42.802 --> 00:16:48.653
And so it look, Eric, I mean looking at you, I can see elements of your identity, right?
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And looking at me, you can see elements of my identity.
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So we're already expressing something.
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The better you can know, who you are, what you represent, what you want to do, et cetera, and put it out there, the better overall, because people can compete with you, but they can't be you.
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Yeah.
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Everyone is and every organization is unique.
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Getting to that core identity is the heart of your branding and your branding is the heart of your marketing.
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Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast.
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But first, are you ready to grow, scale, and take your marketing to the next level?
00:17:25.761 --> 00:17:32.122
If so, The Five Echelon Group's Virtual CMO consulting service may be a great fit for you.
00:17:32.392 --> 00:17:38.301
We can help build a strategic marketing plan for your business and manage its execution, step-by-step.
00:17:38.541 --> 00:17:41.091
We'll focus on areas like how to attract more leads.
00:17:41.362 --> 00:17:45.501
How to create compelling messaging that resonates with your ideal customers.
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How to strategically package and position your products and services.
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How to increase lead conversion, improve your margins, and scale your business.
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To find out more about our consulting offerings and schedule a consultation, go to fiveechelon.com and click on Services.
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Now back to the podcast.
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You know, back in the day, early in my career, we used to do things called JAD sessions, joint application design.
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Which was basically a glorified whiteboard session where you'd sit down and try to get to a common understanding.
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In this case, it was about a software process design.
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And it reminds me very much of what you were just describing because oftentimes enter a room thinking that they're on the same page, thinking that they're all sort of marching to the same drummer, if you will.
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But then when you sort of get everybody's unique flavor or take on that, you find that there are some fairly significant differences.
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Yeah.
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Look, coffee is coffee, and yet Starbucks is incredibly successful.
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Starbucks isn't really about the coffee, I don't even like their coffee.
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Starbucks is about the experience.
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And they keyed into that by going to Italy and seeing what that experience was like, right?
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And so the more that you're thoughtful about this and take some time and invest in this, I think it's better for you rather than trying to be things you aren't.
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The Hyundai buyer and the Porsche buyer are very different people, right?
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Stop trying to sell a Hyundai to a guy who wants a Porsche and vice versa.
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I'm interested.
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I know you have for-profit clients as well.
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But I think that there are many businesses that shy away from servicing the not-for-profit space or government entities.
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They think, well, these guys don't have any money.
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It's very complicated, procurement is difficult.
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But that's not necessarily true, right?
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There a lot of within this space.
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How would you contrast sort of working in that space versus working in the for-profit world?
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you just share, what do you think some of the trade-offs are and negative?
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Sure.
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So the first thing that I think about with nonprofits is there's incredibly, generally there's incredibly good intention there.
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