Oct. 12, 2020

How to Shift Ahead and Pivot in Business with Allen Adamson

How to Shift Ahead and Pivot in Business with Allen Adamson
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Season 2

In this episode, host Eric Dickmann interviews Allen Adamson. Allen is a noted industry expert in all disciplines of branding. He has worked with a broad spectrum of consumer and corporate businesses in industries ranging from packaged goods and technology to health care and financial services, to hospitality and entertainment.

Allen is Co-Founder and Managing Partner of Metaforce (www.metaforce.com), a disruptive marketing and product consultancy which, unlike traditional firms, takes a multi-disciplinary channel-agnostic approach to marketing challenges.

How organizations do – or do not - stay relevant is the subject of Allen’s most recent book, "Shift Ahead." Using fascinating first-hand accounts and detailed case studies, "Shift Ahead" explains how the best organizations recognize when it’s time to change direction, and how they pull it off while bolstering their brands. Following the approach of Allen’s previous books, "BrandSimple", "BrandDigital", and "The Edge: 50 Tips from Brands That Lead" – which are used in universities across the country - "Shift Ahead" offers up practical and readily applied lessons learned.

Shift Ahead (https://www.shiftaheadbook.com)

Eric Dickmann can be found on Twitter @EDickmann and LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/edickmann and my website https://ericdickmann.com

Allen Adamson can be found online on Twitter @adamsona and LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/allenadamson/

Episode Summary: The episode summary can be found at https://fiveechelon.com/shift-ahead-pivot-in-business-s2e31/

If you'd like to contact us with feedback or guest inquiries, please visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/podcast

For more information about Virtual CMO strategic marketing consulting services, visit The Five Echelon Group at https://fiveechelon.com

Episode #31

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WEBVTT

00:00:08.884 --> 00:00:12.890
Welcome to season two of The Virtual CMO podcast.

00:00:13.099 --> 00:00:16.820
I'm your host, Eric Dickmann, founder of The Five Echelon Group.

00:00:17.210 --> 00:00:27.440
Our goal is to share strategies, tools, and tactics with fellow marketing professionals that you can use to impact the trajectory of your company's marketing programs.

00:00:27.890 --> 00:00:36.575
We have candid conversations about what works, and what doesn't, with marketing tactics, customer experience, design and automation tools.

00:00:36.905 --> 00:00:45.304
Our goal is to provide value each week with a roster of thoughtful and informative guests engaged in a lively conversation.

00:00:45.784 --> 00:00:52.564
So with that, let's introduce this week's guest and dive into another conversation with The Virtual CMO.

00:00:53.549 --> 00:00:55.829
Allen welcome to the virtual CMO podcast.

00:00:55.859 --> 00:00:57.570
I'm so glad you could join us today.

00:00:58.079 --> 00:00:59.880
Thanks for having me fun to be here.

00:01:00.210 --> 00:01:03.539
You know, I really enjoyed reading your book shift ahead.

00:01:03.570 --> 00:01:07.739
Thank you so much for sending that this was really quite an effort to put together.

00:01:07.799 --> 00:01:10.349
Do you know how many case studies you've included in this book?

00:01:10.859 --> 00:01:13.519
No, I don't think I've counted them, but, More than 10.

00:01:13.609 --> 00:01:14.450
Let's just say that.

00:01:14.450 --> 00:01:15.230
more than 10.

00:01:15.230 --> 00:01:15.500
Yeah.

00:01:15.530 --> 00:01:29.280
And some of the were really fun for me to revisit because they're great, classic business case studies, I'm thinking of, you know, Blackberry and Kodak and some of these others that we'll talk to as we go through the interview here, but I wanted to start today.

00:01:29.489 --> 00:01:37.230
I know you're an author, you're the co founder of metaphors and you're also an adjunct professor at the NYU school, a stern school of business.

00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:40.409
And I'm a fan of a professor, Scott Galloway.

00:01:40.409 --> 00:01:42.689
I listened to him and Kara Swisher on pivot.

00:01:43.200 --> 00:01:50.040
And he's been talking a lot lately about changes in higher education, especially because of COVID.

00:01:50.370 --> 00:02:00.840
And the fact that everybody's doing online learning right now and there's a question about the value of what some of these schools are charging for higher education.

00:02:01.049 --> 00:02:08.789
And, you know, you talk about shifts and there's probably been no more dramatic shift than what's happened in education because of COVID.

00:02:09.150 --> 00:02:15.810
I wonder, as a professor yourself, what are your thoughts on how all of this has impacted higher education?

00:02:16.439 --> 00:02:26.069
I think it's one of the most interesting case studies because As a professor Galloway had said, universities have been slow to change, had been doing the basic same basic thing.

00:02:26.099 --> 00:02:27.569
They didn't doing for years.

00:02:27.569 --> 00:02:29.280
They haven't been forced to innovate.

00:02:29.280 --> 00:02:32.250
it's a legacy game and now they need to shift ahead.

00:02:32.250 --> 00:02:41.409
And as you know, universities are an experience when the student goes there is there is a learning experience in the classroom, but there is a sports experience.

00:02:41.409 --> 00:02:45.340
There is a social experience as the living experiences of food experience.

00:02:45.340 --> 00:02:47.020
And now all of these universities.

00:02:47.379 --> 00:02:51.039
Have been forced to compete on one dimension, which is what happens in that classroom.

00:02:51.490 --> 00:02:58.210
And most of them are just, popping up zoom like we are and delivering the same lecture that they did.

00:02:59.099 --> 00:03:00.810
in the classroom online.

00:03:00.870 --> 00:03:02.830
And it's a deadly recipe.

00:03:02.830 --> 00:03:05.889
If it's like when the movie started the early movies.

00:03:06.189 --> 00:03:08.110
they just filmed stage productions.

00:03:08.479 --> 00:03:15.919
and so you gotta think of this and say, these kids are used to playing virtual reality games are used to seeing the highest level HBO productions.

00:03:16.310 --> 00:03:19.400
And now they're sitting, looking at a static professor.

00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:20.750
Who's not that comfortable.

00:03:21.050 --> 00:03:24.139
Perhaps talking on screen and certainly the technology skills.

00:03:24.500 --> 00:03:25.789
Are even worse.

00:03:26.020 --> 00:03:30.689
and so they better learn quickly how to, create an online experience.

00:03:30.689 --> 00:03:31.860
It's more than a talking head.

00:03:32.939 --> 00:03:47.729
That's so interesting because I've had guests on the show before, and we've talked about things like the online trading platform, Robinhood, and some of the aspects where they've gotten in the news, because they've introduced gamification into trading.

00:03:47.879 --> 00:03:57.629
They've attracted a lot of younger people to the platform and they're getting in trouble because it's like a game as opposed to, our real life trading platform in some ways.

00:03:57.960 --> 00:04:01.620
And when you talk about higher education, you talk about attention Spans.

00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:03.659
This really hasn't been thought through.

00:04:03.659 --> 00:04:05.430
How do you keep that attention?

00:04:06.360 --> 00:04:06.750
I don't.

00:04:06.780 --> 00:04:10.770
I hope we don't get the gamification of education, but you almost wonder what it's going to take.

00:04:11.259 --> 00:04:12.039
it's going to take you.

00:04:12.129 --> 00:04:13.659
It's going to take simply.

00:04:14.560 --> 00:04:23.399
Having the education do what, something more than made, maybe major league baseball is doing, which is, you know, let's do the same thing, travel all around, just have paper cardboard for the fans.

00:04:23.670 --> 00:04:27.019
And there you're finding that, just doing what you did before.

00:04:27.980 --> 00:04:32.930
Online doesn't necessarily work just like the first online digital platforms.

00:04:32.930 --> 00:04:34.250
Just try to replicate.

00:04:35.300 --> 00:04:37.639
A physical thing and we're not that effective.

00:04:37.639 --> 00:04:41.449
So I think, and I think education actually, Eric is a great example.

00:04:41.600 --> 00:04:44.930
Most organizations be their universities would be the.

00:04:45.410 --> 00:04:46.220
dry cleaners.

00:04:46.610 --> 00:04:47.970
Be there dog sitters.

00:04:48.930 --> 00:04:52.230
Just generally approach things the way they did yesterday.

00:04:52.259 --> 00:04:54.639
They're very, if it's, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

00:04:55.009 --> 00:04:59.750
for years universities have had it, lots of students coming in from global markets.

00:05:00.269 --> 00:05:01.050
it was working.

00:05:01.050 --> 00:05:03.870
There was no need to change the playbook, you know?

00:05:04.050 --> 00:05:09.839
So if you want it to do something innovative and education, I'm sure you were met with, or that's an interesting idea, but why.

00:05:10.079 --> 00:05:12.959
You know what we got, we'll do what we did last year.

00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:14.490
you know, it's working so well.

00:05:14.670 --> 00:05:15.990
Let's not reinvent the wheel.

00:05:16.800 --> 00:05:27.329
That's a great segue actually into one of the chapters in your book, which is all about red flags in the warning signs that are out there for businesses and what they need to pay attention to.

00:05:27.750 --> 00:05:32.377
And certainly COVID has accelerated this.

00:05:32.377 --> 00:05:36.666
If there were red flags out there, this may have pushed businesses even further.

00:05:36.867 --> 00:05:41.367
into trouble because of red flags that they missed education obviously is one of them.

00:05:41.547 --> 00:05:48.326
But if you would talk a little bit about this idea of red flags and maybe what in this world of COVID in terms of acceleration.

00:05:49.286 --> 00:06:02.026
Yeah, I think, I'll start off with the point I was just making is that you need to realize that we are all like Marty crane from the old Frazier show, very comfortable in our own little lounge chair and, you know, without.

00:06:02.567 --> 00:06:07.127
Anything else happening, but just, you need to realize most people are more comfortable doing what's familiar.

00:06:07.877 --> 00:06:08.927
Then try something new.

00:06:08.927 --> 00:06:15.637
So you start your day, you answer your emails and you know, most people are just, you need to realize you're starting in the end zone.

00:06:16.086 --> 00:06:17.617
You're starting from a place of.

00:06:18.427 --> 00:06:19.086
It ain't broke.

00:06:19.086 --> 00:06:19.807
Don't fix it.

00:06:20.107 --> 00:06:27.336
And so the first red flag is if you're really comfortable in your, what you do every day and you're into a really deep routine.

00:06:27.666 --> 00:06:29.947
And everything is, this is how I do the coffee.

00:06:29.947 --> 00:06:31.237
This is how I go to work.

00:06:31.237 --> 00:06:33.067
This is where you are.

00:06:33.336 --> 00:06:34.206
You are.

00:06:34.776 --> 00:06:38.646
You got a big target on you saying you are potentially going to be shifted.

00:06:39.156 --> 00:06:40.447
Somebody is going to shift ahead of you.

00:06:40.447 --> 00:06:48.966
So that's the first one and that's human nature, but, and it's the hardest to understand, but most people don't realize how much of a rut and a routine.

00:06:49.357 --> 00:06:49.867
And how.

00:06:50.677 --> 00:06:52.627
They just doing what they did yesterday.

00:06:52.627 --> 00:06:53.466
Most of the time.

00:06:54.646 --> 00:07:01.966
Another point that you make as a red flag is, companies that don't really differentiate on anything other than price.

00:07:01.966 --> 00:07:09.526
I remember when Amazon first came out and everybody thought, you know, it's a great place to buy books because they're cheaper, but it was much more than that, It was about the whole experience.

00:07:09.976 --> 00:07:15.317
And so that's the other place is that, oftentimes what causes people to.

00:07:15.819 --> 00:07:17.509
Say, maybe yesterday's game plan.

00:07:17.540 --> 00:07:18.110
Isn't working.

00:07:18.529 --> 00:07:20.389
Is oil and sales start, go down.

00:07:21.139 --> 00:07:24.980
Or their competitor across the street opens up and starts offering a lower price.

00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:27.339
And you know, there is this, you.

00:07:27.490 --> 00:07:30.220
An external thing where all of a sudden sales are going down, we're making less money.

00:07:30.879 --> 00:07:37.519
But what we found in looking at lots of these case studies is if you wait for sales to go down, And start falling.

00:07:37.939 --> 00:07:41.269
It's often too late that, you know, sales is a lagging indicator.

00:07:41.269 --> 00:07:44.360
The last thing to happen is people stop buying your product.

00:07:44.389 --> 00:07:47.209
But before that, They start feeling it's expensive.

00:07:47.269 --> 00:07:50.870
They start looking at competition and they start trying other things.

00:07:51.199 --> 00:07:53.060
And but most companies only weight.

00:07:54.110 --> 00:07:58.459
you know, the one barometer they pay attention to also the money is slowing down.

00:07:58.910 --> 00:08:04.430
And if you wait that long, you're in a whole bunch of challenges, because it's really hard.

00:08:05.029 --> 00:08:06.800
To shift ahead and do something new.

00:08:06.800 --> 00:08:08.959
If you're struggling to keep the lights on.

00:08:10.129 --> 00:08:14.060
We're in an era of big data and mountains of metrics.

00:08:15.019 --> 00:08:19.009
Why is it so hard for companies that are sitting on all of this data?

00:08:19.069 --> 00:08:22.939
Not to see some of these trends and take action before it's too late.

00:08:23.810 --> 00:08:25.610
Yeah, part of it is it's too much data.

00:08:25.730 --> 00:08:26.689
And so you know, you're.

00:08:27.199 --> 00:08:28.250
You're looking at a lot of things.

00:08:28.490 --> 00:08:29.509
The other piece is that.

00:08:30.019 --> 00:08:30.350
Yeah.

00:08:30.350 --> 00:08:32.659
So people are a little unhappy with our customer service.

00:08:32.690 --> 00:08:38.240
They'll get over it or, you know, ours is a little more expensive, but we've been charging this for the same.

00:08:38.509 --> 00:08:40.159
This is the way we do things here.

00:08:40.580 --> 00:08:48.200
And I still think that when this guy starts falling in revenue sources and you see it so much in retail, Oh, lots of the retailers.

00:08:48.620 --> 00:08:54.769
That by the time we in the book, talk a little bit about an old retailer called radio shack for years, they were struggling.

00:08:55.100 --> 00:08:56.179
Even from the name you.

00:08:56.360 --> 00:09:00.200
You didn't go there to buy radios and they didn't want to be seen as a shack, but, you know, they kept on.

00:09:00.614 --> 00:09:01.033
And.

00:09:01.094 --> 00:09:03.673
they came up with a great brand positioning.

00:09:04.394 --> 00:09:06.734
Earlier before they disappeared.

00:09:06.734 --> 00:09:13.423
And the line was, if you've got questions, we've got answers, which was the real insight as to when people deal with technology is, today.

00:09:14.234 --> 00:09:14.504
Yeah.

00:09:14.984 --> 00:09:16.964
The one challenge is I can't work it.

00:09:16.994 --> 00:09:19.214
It's not working and you need help.

00:09:19.663 --> 00:09:26.203
But what they found out was by the time they came up with that insight and you went into a radio shack and said, look, here's my thing.

00:09:26.203 --> 00:09:26.894
It's not working.

00:09:27.323 --> 00:09:30.264
they hadn't invested in the people behind the counter at new lesson.

00:09:30.264 --> 00:09:32.244
You did, you know, they just had the lowest.

00:09:32.874 --> 00:09:35.063
Training qualified salespeople.

00:09:35.244 --> 00:09:39.323
So even though they promise that you got questions, we have answers, they couldn't answer.

00:09:39.864 --> 00:09:45.864
And then for them to hire and train the right people, they were losing money so fast that they couldn't invest.

00:09:46.073 --> 00:09:47.423
If they had thought of that idea.

00:09:48.474 --> 00:10:02.793
Oh, and executed that 10 years earlier, when they were somewhat profitable, they might've been able to hire people behind the counter, like the genius bar at Apple who could actually look at a piece of technology and say, Hey, you need a new battery, or this is not working.

00:10:03.144 --> 00:10:07.673
part of it is realizing that if you're going to shift, it's not easy.

00:10:08.033 --> 00:10:10.764
It's going to take more money than you're making now maybe.

00:10:11.033 --> 00:10:14.874
And you have to plan for a few tries at it before you get it right.

00:10:16.313 --> 00:10:21.894
And sometimes I think it's companies don't want to give up on a market that they're entrenched in you.

00:10:21.894 --> 00:10:27.803
One of my favorite examples in the book, because I'm a photography not is around Kodak and Kodak.

00:10:27.833 --> 00:10:29.994
We're recording this in late July.

00:10:30.104 --> 00:10:34.724
Kodak was just in the news yesterday because they were awarded a big government contract.

00:10:35.053 --> 00:10:45.323
To make pharmaceutical chemicals for generic drugs to try to bring some of that manufacturing back to the U S but here's a company that, you know, was, an industry leader and.

00:10:45.813 --> 00:10:48.063
wiped out because of digital photography.

00:10:48.183 --> 00:10:51.573
And yet, in the example, you're giving the book, they're the ones that created the patent for it.

00:10:52.323 --> 00:10:52.624
Yeah.

00:10:52.894 --> 00:10:56.254
I had the privilege of, working with Kodak when it was still.

00:10:56.774 --> 00:11:03.364
Kodak and they were on every street corner, not only main street, but around the world.

00:11:03.364 --> 00:11:03.484
And.

00:11:04.104 --> 00:11:09.624
Kodak in the word, pictures were one idea in people's heads and Iowa thought that.

00:11:10.104 --> 00:11:10.734
You know, they.

00:11:12.173 --> 00:11:20.333
Didn't see the digital thing coming that, you know, But one of the more interesting interviews we did was with a head of strategic planning, who was a Kodak at the time.

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And they had a pretty good research and a lot of data even back then.

00:11:23.953 --> 00:11:24.344
And.

00:11:24.943 --> 00:11:28.303
The gentleman told us that no, they knew that the digital.

00:11:28.933 --> 00:11:31.453
As you said they not only invented digital photography.

00:11:31.693 --> 00:11:34.153
They knew that the world was gonna change.

00:11:34.313 --> 00:11:40.943
and they actually new to the year and the quarter when digital photography would start eclipsing film photography.

00:11:41.423 --> 00:11:42.864
And so that was even more surprising.

00:11:42.923 --> 00:11:44.754
So it wasn't like they didn't see the train.

00:11:44.884 --> 00:11:54.644
They tell the train coming for years, and yet they couldn't get out of the way, which led to another conclusion, which was, when you see this, you knew this was coming five years ahead, you had the digital technology.

00:11:54.854 --> 00:11:59.234
Why couldn't you shift your business and jump after digital?

00:11:59.683 --> 00:12:03.073
And that was because of what we call the golden handcuffs.

00:12:03.073 --> 00:12:07.484
They were making so much money on film, photography, the margins.

00:12:07.844 --> 00:12:09.913
At that point, they had optimized for years.

00:12:09.913 --> 00:12:16.754
That every time you shot a picture on Kodak film there, the profit margin, whatever the number was, 85% of it went to the bottom line.

00:12:17.144 --> 00:12:18.823
And the only thing for sure is if you.

00:12:19.394 --> 00:12:21.014
So digital photography, it was.

00:12:22.033 --> 00:12:24.193
You were making 10% or maybe losing money.

00:12:24.193 --> 00:12:33.614
So inside the company, the people that were making all the money on film set, we're not giving any of our profit in the film division to the digital division, because you're just going to lose it.

00:12:33.644 --> 00:12:34.783
We make more money here.

00:12:34.783 --> 00:12:37.543
So even inside Kodak, they couldn't move money.

00:12:38.083 --> 00:12:44.053
From film to the future because you were making more money today than you were.

00:12:45.014 --> 00:12:46.394
Just doing digital photography.

00:12:46.573 --> 00:12:58.903
And that's the big challenge for lots of retailers, lots of companies, because, you know, often shifting head means making some, making fewer dollars in the short term, which is going to help you survive in the long term.

00:12:59.173 --> 00:13:02.594
But that little transition of moving money from profitable businesses.

00:13:02.923 --> 00:13:07.754
To less profitable businesses, is even inside of a single company.

00:13:08.083 --> 00:13:08.563
Hard to do.

00:13:08.563 --> 00:13:10.543
And of course, wall street will punish you.

00:13:10.543 --> 00:13:17.364
If they started to say, instead of making$100 million last year, we're going to make 10 million, for you shareholders, because we're investing in tomorrow.

00:13:17.783 --> 00:13:18.594
You know, their stock.

00:13:19.484 --> 00:13:19.974
Would.

00:13:20.494 --> 00:13:24.244
and did get hammered and same happens with many other businesses.

00:13:24.994 --> 00:13:28.053
How would you compare that to a case study of a Blackberry?

00:13:28.173 --> 00:13:34.894
It seems like Blackberry, it wasn't so much that they were tied to the existing revenue that they were making today.

00:13:34.894 --> 00:13:38.974
It's just that they didn't believe in the same future that other companies did.

00:13:39.183 --> 00:13:39.634
Yeah.

00:13:39.693 --> 00:13:39.933
Yeah.

00:13:40.504 --> 00:13:47.303
So one is that, the, you don't see the train coming and hide your head in the sand and or two what's the one I just talked about, which is he can't.

00:13:47.964 --> 00:13:49.614
You know, it's coming, but you can't get out of the way.

00:13:49.614 --> 00:13:50.964
So you get run over by the train.

00:13:51.234 --> 00:13:53.923
The third is, the Blackberry story was a bit of areas.

00:13:53.923 --> 00:13:54.884
They just believe that.

00:13:55.453 --> 00:13:58.634
Yeah, because the Blackberry had become the power tool of.

00:13:59.653 --> 00:14:09.614
Eddie investment banker, you met on Goldman Sachs or Lehman brothers, another branded vaporized, but any anyone you met, you know, in that powered circle had a Blackberry.

00:14:10.333 --> 00:14:13.844
Oh from, you know, super moms too.

00:14:14.744 --> 00:14:15.673
To the president.

00:14:16.063 --> 00:14:20.524
And so they just believe that, no one is going to give up this little keyboard thing.

00:14:20.604 --> 00:14:20.844
No.

00:14:21.354 --> 00:14:22.134
That's ridiculous.

00:14:22.134 --> 00:14:23.364
That's just a music player.

00:14:23.514 --> 00:14:28.014
So they were arrogant, you know, and that's another reason you can get run over by a train.

00:14:29.514 --> 00:14:35.964
Even if you see it coming and even if you can't, You know, move money to build a new railroad track, to get out of the way.

00:14:36.563 --> 00:14:38.844
This was a case of, and it's often the case.

00:14:39.264 --> 00:14:40.134
we're invincible.

00:14:40.163 --> 00:14:40.764
We're great.

00:14:40.864 --> 00:14:42.214
This too shall pass.

00:14:42.543 --> 00:14:49.833
No, one's gonna take a little music player and thinking at the same with Nokia, you know, they'd looked at it and they were on the phone business and they looked at Apple.

00:14:50.524 --> 00:14:52.144
It's a little music player.

00:14:52.173 --> 00:14:54.453
You know, people aren't going to give up their little Nokia phone.

00:14:54.933 --> 00:14:58.894
And didn't realize that they weren't selling a bigger phone.

00:14:59.254 --> 00:15:04.864
Apple was selling a computer in your pocket, not a, not a cheaper phone and they didn't even did research a story.

00:15:04.894 --> 00:15:05.793
That Nokia was interesting.

00:15:06.573 --> 00:15:06.663
Yeah.

00:15:07.384 --> 00:15:10.624
And they said no one is going to spend this much money for a fall.

00:15:10.653 --> 00:15:12.813
We offer a phone for 69 95.

00:15:13.114 --> 00:15:14.313
That's the number one selling phone.

00:15:14.494 --> 00:15:17.073
No, one's gonna spend$200 for an iPhone.

00:15:17.114 --> 00:15:18.313
it's a complete joke.

00:15:18.364 --> 00:15:24.214
and consumers were saying, you know, if you did a research and said, Here's our Nokia phone,$69.

00:15:24.244 --> 00:15:28.833
Here's an apples for, I forgot what it was is your 250, which would you buy?

00:15:29.313 --> 00:15:29.974
Of course, consumers.

00:15:30.063 --> 00:15:32.224
I'm never going to spend two full 50 for a phone.

00:15:32.673 --> 00:15:38.043
Yeah, I love the Nokia and they just didn't realize that they were asking the wrong question.

00:15:38.346 --> 00:15:38.525
Yeah.

00:15:38.525 --> 00:15:41.495
That's the whole phone story is so interesting, right?

00:15:41.495 --> 00:15:43.326
Because Microsoft really dropped the ball there.

00:15:43.326 --> 00:15:44.015
There's that famous.

00:15:44.015 --> 00:15:46.086
Steve Balmer interviewers laughs it off.

00:15:46.475 --> 00:15:57.966
And I think, you know, going back to Kodak just for a second, do you look at this change in strategy that they're doing now where they're going into pharmaceutical chemicals as a shift ahead?

00:15:57.995 --> 00:15:59.225
Or do you look at this more?

00:15:59.225 --> 00:16:01.775
Is you know, a desperation move.

00:16:02.615 --> 00:16:05.196
So it was another interesting story with hope.

00:16:05.196 --> 00:16:13.355
We don't hammer Kodak too much for your audience, but there was a big board meeting at Kodak early during this period.

00:16:13.775 --> 00:16:15.875
Where, Oh, there was a decision.

00:16:16.086 --> 00:16:17.735
How much do we lean into digital?

00:16:18.576 --> 00:16:20.885
And half the board wanted to.

00:16:21.816 --> 00:16:25.086
Not do it, but to double down, cause they own Sterling drugs.

00:16:25.086 --> 00:16:31.566
They were a chemical company and they're half the board felt that our true DNA at Kodak is a manufacturer.

00:16:32.015 --> 00:16:41.225
And a chemical company, we should embrace the pharmaceutical side and the chemical side of our business and not try to be a digital because we're not a digital company.

00:16:41.225 --> 00:16:42.995
We're not in Silicon Valley.

00:16:42.995 --> 00:16:43.745
We're not cool.

00:16:43.745 --> 00:16:53.025
We're not hip the culture of kodak was a chemical manufacturing sales company, which was consistent with the pharmaceutical and chemical business.

00:16:53.235 --> 00:16:57.525
So there was a big board meeting, half the board wanted to stay in pharmaceuticals and to keep.

00:16:58.096 --> 00:17:04.036
A bet there and half board wanted to just say, let's be cool and digital, and try to compete with Silicon Valley.

00:17:04.246 --> 00:17:09.256
They ended up selling Sterling drug, which was a manufacturer Bayer aspirin, and that's done well.

00:17:09.286 --> 00:17:10.276
They set up a company.

00:17:10.576 --> 00:17:12.766
Called Eastman, chemical, which today is.

00:17:13.215 --> 00:17:15.976
I don't know what three or$4 billion in Tennessee.

00:17:16.215 --> 00:17:18.286
A very successful chemical company.

00:17:18.695 --> 00:17:19.865
and which brings up another point.

00:17:19.965 --> 00:17:23.836
You know, part of shifting ahead is to realize what's your skill set?

00:17:23.836 --> 00:17:24.435
Who are you?

00:17:24.435 --> 00:17:25.276
What's your DNA.

00:17:25.276 --> 00:17:27.855
And you could want to be the coolest Silicon Valley kid.

00:17:28.455 --> 00:17:28.576
Oh.

00:17:28.576 --> 00:17:34.895
But if you're a chemical guy and a sales guy, Oh, and you're trying to compete with the coders, in Palo Alto.

00:17:35.415 --> 00:17:38.115
you may try, but you're going to get eaten up.

00:17:38.806 --> 00:17:40.215
Professors Steckel often.

00:17:40.816 --> 00:17:43.395
He wanted to be a basketball player, but at five eight.

00:17:43.756 --> 00:17:50.175
You know, no matter how much he practiced, he was not going to make a living shooting baskets.

00:17:50.236 --> 00:17:52.336
And I think the same is true for Kodak.

00:17:52.746 --> 00:17:53.766
you know, so now.

00:17:54.276 --> 00:17:59.645
25 30 years later, I forget how much we're seeing them go back to their roots back to the future.

00:17:59.826 --> 00:18:02.046
But that was always Kodak's strengths was as.

00:18:02.705 --> 00:18:04.865
You know, domestic, chemical manufacturer.

00:18:05.195 --> 00:18:10.086
and perhaps if they had chosen to stay with Sterling drugs and keep a big footprint.

00:18:10.625 --> 00:18:18.695
In pharmaceutical, they would be a real company today, not one, struggling to get loans from the government to do, business development and, and chemicals.

00:18:19.665 --> 00:18:23.165
Now you talk about some of these decisions that are made in the boardroom.

00:18:23.435 --> 00:18:31.776
But what do you have a small organization or even more so when you have a larger organization, you've got this inertia of, we've always done it this way.

00:18:32.855 --> 00:18:36.846
How do you prepare an organization for change for these shifts?

00:18:36.996 --> 00:18:41.526
When you've got that inertia of this is just the way we've always done things.

00:18:42.096 --> 00:18:45.155
Another really great question, Eric, another interesting finding, was it.

00:18:45.455 --> 00:18:57.726
The companies that tended to be, this is a business school were very myopic and hired everyone who went to the same school and we're the same button down shirts and watch the same movies tended to get.

00:18:58.115 --> 00:19:07.175
Disrupted and they're business tended to get shifted ahead by someone else, because they all looked at the world through a fixed worldview.

00:19:07.536 --> 00:19:08.526
They all saw.

00:19:08.855 --> 00:19:10.415
Yeah, the same thing.

00:19:10.415 --> 00:19:10.986
They all watch.

00:19:11.226 --> 00:19:12.455
They were in a bubble.

00:19:13.086 --> 00:19:17.645
And so one of the, one of the things, the key lessons in the book is if you want to.

00:19:18.455 --> 00:19:19.806
Try to keep your business relevant.

00:19:19.836 --> 00:19:20.796
Make sure you.

00:19:21.516 --> 00:19:32.365
Don't get in a bubble, make sure you hire people different than you who look at the world differently, different backgrounds, different educations, because that diversity will help you go from a very narrow view.

00:19:32.756 --> 00:19:35.425
To what we call peripheral vision because most companies.

00:19:36.026 --> 00:19:36.536
Bigger smile.

00:19:36.596 --> 00:19:38.276
Don't get disrupted.

00:19:38.276 --> 00:19:44.895
If you would buy the person right in front of your nose, you know, Kodak, didn't get beaten by Fuji film, you know?

00:19:45.195 --> 00:19:45.435
yeah.

00:19:45.556 --> 00:19:48.556
And so most companies don't get Gillette.

00:19:48.615 --> 00:19:49.965
Didn't have trouble with Schick.

00:19:50.776 --> 00:19:51.046
Yeah.

00:19:51.266 --> 00:19:58.256
yeah, they were wet when I worked with P and G, they were very focused on Schick and shifted something in the razor market.

00:19:58.375 --> 00:20:00.746
There was five meetings to discuss what could happen.

00:20:01.165 --> 00:20:05.276
No one was watching the kid in LA whose father got home, some cheap.

00:20:05.905 --> 00:20:09.326
razorblades to do dollar shave club that wasn't, you know, they were not.

00:20:10.076 --> 00:20:11.695
That was not even on their radar screen.

00:20:11.726 --> 00:20:16.435
And so part of it is because everyone went to the same business school and sat in her the way you run a big business.

00:20:16.435 --> 00:20:19.435
As you look at what your competitor does, you do deep analysis.

00:20:19.705 --> 00:20:21.316
that was, Yeah, another.

00:20:22.036 --> 00:20:26.026
Red flag is if everyone looks the same talks, the same has the same background.

00:20:26.296 --> 00:20:26.986
Watch out.

00:20:27.016 --> 00:20:28.246
You're going to get run over.

00:20:28.486 --> 00:20:31.756
Not by the person right in front of you, but by somebody coming out of your.

00:20:32.256 --> 00:20:33.185
peripheral vision.

00:20:34.566 --> 00:20:36.486
There's been so much talk lately.

00:20:36.665 --> 00:20:39.516
There's a great book too called pivot that's out now.

00:20:39.546 --> 00:20:46.566
And do you look at shifting ahead and pivoting as the same thing, or do you really see a difference?

00:20:46.865 --> 00:20:48.306
In those two concepts.

00:20:48.635 --> 00:20:50.316
No, I think they're pretty similar, you know?

00:20:50.415 --> 00:20:55.955
oftentimes, you know, as you said, companies get in trouble is because they keep the hands straight and they're going to go straight ahead.

00:20:56.496 --> 00:20:57.665
And there's no need to.

00:20:58.596 --> 00:21:01.925
To pivot or shift, you know, it's just, Steady as she goes.

00:21:02.375 --> 00:21:08.266
And, the, they built and often times what happens from a cultural point of view is, you know, is you build an organization.

00:21:08.776 --> 00:21:10.665
To optimize what you've got.

00:21:11.056 --> 00:21:12.256
You don't build an organization.

00:21:12.286 --> 00:21:16.125
So the Kodak organization was built to optimize film, not to invent digital.

00:21:16.516 --> 00:21:18.256
When I was a brand energy Unilever.

00:21:18.675 --> 00:21:18.826
Yeah.

00:21:19.096 --> 00:21:20.026
And worked on.

00:21:20.806 --> 00:21:26.086
So category are lots of my job was can we make the rapper a little thinner to save some money here?

00:21:26.086 --> 00:21:27.705
Or can we change this?

00:21:27.885 --> 00:21:30.375
You know, a lot of it was, how do you make this soap?

00:21:30.885 --> 00:21:35.445
Cost less, maybe work a little better, but fundamentally you were in the soap business.

00:21:35.445 --> 00:21:39.226
You weren't thinking about cleaning your hands with a pump dispenser.

00:21:39.645 --> 00:21:45.736
Or, you know, You were just in the, you were in a category and you were optimizing it.

00:21:45.945 --> 00:21:47.826
And I think both are similar.

00:21:48.135 --> 00:21:49.455
and, yeah.

00:21:49.875 --> 00:21:53.086
Again, the theory on this stuff The caveat I want to put out here.

00:21:53.715 --> 00:21:54.736
Yeah, everyone knows us.

00:21:55.486 --> 00:21:58.846
You've talked to any Oh, We're constantly changing the state relevant.

00:21:58.875 --> 00:22:02.266
We're looking all around and you know, but there's a big difference.

00:22:02.296 --> 00:22:06.425
It's like when I say, you know, I know I should work out every day and stop eating Twinkies.

00:22:07.086 --> 00:22:16.806
And there's a big gap between the knowledge of needing to work out every day and not sit at a desk and stop eating Twinkie and the realities of what happens when you sit at a desk all day and have a Twinkie at three o'clock.

00:22:17.165 --> 00:22:18.006
Yeah, that's so true.

00:22:18.036 --> 00:22:18.816
That's so true.

00:22:19.266 --> 00:22:27.316
You know, what are the other examples in the book that I can relate to a lot, I spent a lot of my career, marketing in the financial services industry.

00:22:27.736 --> 00:22:37.996
And if you look at a company like IBM, IBM has always had a very trusted relationship, especially with, you know, big banks, big corporations.

00:22:37.996 --> 00:22:40.965
They've been a trusted partner, but they've shifted.

00:22:40.996 --> 00:22:43.996
They've pivoted multiple times during their history.

00:22:44.326 --> 00:22:48.885
It's hard to stay relevant for a long time in technology because technology keeps changing.

00:22:49.395 --> 00:22:54.705
When you look at a company like IBM, do you think that they have been successful at shifting over time?

00:22:55.816 --> 00:23:01.016
Yeah, I would say that, First the technology category is one of the hardest categories in the world.

00:23:02.246 --> 00:23:08.336
to stay relevant because different categories as, you know, move at different paces.

00:23:08.726 --> 00:23:12.746
And so if you're selling donuts that business changes, but not.

00:23:13.286 --> 00:23:17.476
If you're in a technology business, what's driving your business today could be totally irrelevant.

00:23:18.195 --> 00:23:19.246
And gone tomorrow.

00:23:19.726 --> 00:23:21.486
and To IBM's defense.

00:23:21.756 --> 00:23:28.115
They are in the worst possible situation of trying to stay relevant that probably the fastest moving category or one chip.

00:23:28.865 --> 00:23:34.385
Design could put you out of business and make you completely irrelevant in a blink of an eye.

00:23:34.895 --> 00:23:47.355
But given that, I think they've done a pretty good job of trying to stand for thinking and standing for solutions and the process of helping business, not so much buying this computer or buying this system.

00:23:47.705 --> 00:24:00.675
you know, cause if you're just selling stuff, that stuff is going to change and you need to think about what your value proposition is and so I think they've done a pretty good job, even though the results recently, they still struggling.

00:24:01.195 --> 00:24:02.875
but I think they would be struggling.

00:24:03.026 --> 00:24:03.955
They'd be gone.

00:24:04.375 --> 00:24:08.276
If they had followed the traditional technology player of just focusing on.

00:24:09.326 --> 00:24:10.375
They are, what they make.

00:24:11.155 --> 00:24:12.955
What they're making now is completely different.

00:24:13.736 --> 00:24:19.286
Then what they made 10 years ago, certainly, but they made 50 years and a lot of companies who've survived.

00:24:19.586 --> 00:24:20.546
Realize it's not.

00:24:20.546 --> 00:24:23.965
What we make today is what problems we help customers solve tomorrow.

00:24:24.445 --> 00:24:36.476
And there's been a huge shift amongst a number of big players, not only to cloud based businesses, but to subscription based businesses or having a larger component of services within their organization.

00:24:36.925 --> 00:24:42.046
Which, as you said is a big change for making things, to providing these services.

00:24:42.432 --> 00:24:45.162
So they've always been in the business of helping you solve problems.

00:24:45.211 --> 00:25:00.001
oftentimes what you would put in a big IBM system back in the day, they would talk about their IBM 360 and the million dollars you have to spend on these big boxes, but often what you were really paying for, it would be the IBM consultants to help you figure out what to do.

00:25:00.422 --> 00:25:02.041
And how to design the system.

00:25:02.642 --> 00:25:10.612
And now Excenture and other people have taken a piece of that work, but so I, you know, I think the tendency is to be very focused on what you make the box.

00:25:11.061 --> 00:25:16.882
Oh, and not paying enough attention, to, How you help people fit that box into their lives?

00:25:16.912 --> 00:25:18.531
I think Apple is a perfect example.

00:25:18.682 --> 00:25:22.892
Lots of people are very fixated on Apple and saying, their screen is not as good as the Samsung.

00:25:22.892 --> 00:25:25.571
And you look at an iPhone versus a Samsung galaxy.

00:25:25.602 --> 00:25:27.342
It's impossible to tell the difference.

00:25:27.372 --> 00:25:28.332
They're both sleek there.

00:25:28.632 --> 00:25:31.541
You know, but what I think is keeping Apple.

00:25:32.382 --> 00:25:33.011
Head of the game.

00:25:33.041 --> 00:25:46.912
It's the genius bar is the experience is the fact that, they're selling more than just pixels on a screen and battery life is that they realize that this is a part of you're creating an ecosystem in a wafer.

00:25:47.392 --> 00:25:50.662
Eh, they're probably spending far more on customer service than others.

00:25:50.872 --> 00:25:56.811
And you don't see that until you call customer service and you, I see what my dad, who's a.

00:25:56.612 --> 00:25:57.662
90 95.

00:25:58.021 --> 00:25:59.612
He's on the phone with Apple care.

00:26:00.001 --> 00:26:06.511
You know, once every two weeks for his phone or his computer and they will spend 45 minutes with him.

00:26:06.511 --> 00:26:13.291
And he's not a big customer, helping him figure out why his email is doing this or Oh, why his calendar is not syncing.

00:26:14.372 --> 00:26:19.021
And if he didn't have that Apple person, screen-sharing with him to help him.

00:26:19.942 --> 00:26:23.602
Send out some more checks on online banking, even though that's not their software.

00:26:24.082 --> 00:26:26.481
And so a lot of that is below the radar screen.

00:26:26.481 --> 00:26:30.892
People are fixated on the beautiful image of the piece of hardware that comes out.

00:26:31.162 --> 00:26:38.741
But I think lots of differentiation today needs to come on the softer side of helping consumers better use products and understand it.

00:26:39.042 --> 00:26:43.272
That's where this whole customer experience design has really come to the forefront.

00:26:43.272 --> 00:26:48.492
it's not just the product, as you said, it's the whole experience of buying and being serviced

00:26:48.542 --> 00:26:49.803
And that's hard to execute.

00:26:49.833 --> 00:26:54.542
And that's the other thing is once you decide you want to do that, Back to the radio shack example.

00:26:54.992 --> 00:27:01.173
It's pretty, it's not totally able to somewhat easy to ask people what they want and come up with a solution that you got questions.

00:27:01.173 --> 00:27:07.053
We have answers, you know, that's part one and you get 30% credit for that 70%.

00:27:07.113 --> 00:27:09.002
And you know, what will make or break you is.

00:27:09.512 --> 00:27:10.383
Can you pull it off?

00:27:10.593 --> 00:27:11.643
Can you get people?

00:27:11.883 --> 00:27:13.532
Can you actually answer the questions?

00:27:13.853 --> 00:27:18.113
I worked on a brand positioning campaign for a large insurance company.

00:27:18.113 --> 00:27:20.843
And they came up with a line we're in the business of caring.

00:27:21.472 --> 00:27:26.393
We care about you and they beautiful ads to make that promise, come to life in that.

00:27:26.423 --> 00:27:28.823
But that's the type of insurance company I want somebody to care about me.

00:27:29.242 --> 00:27:32.303
Yet at the same time they were cutting costs and they told their customer care people.

00:27:32.512 --> 00:27:34.192
You can't spend more than one minute.

00:27:34.833 --> 00:27:37.893
with any customer because we need to have you do 14 calls an hour.

00:27:38.732 --> 00:27:41.222
So one hand, they had a message out saying we care about you.

00:27:41.432 --> 00:27:46.163
And the other time when you call the insurance company, they said, that's an interesting question now, but I gotta run to my next line.

00:27:46.222 --> 00:27:48.923
Good luck figuring that you know how to do that claim out.

00:27:48.952 --> 00:27:53.692
You know, you go to your self help center and read page 17 of the brochure.

00:27:53.903 --> 00:27:56.962
That's the harder piece is to deliver on that promise.

00:27:57.303 --> 00:27:59.883
and just don't estimate underestimate how hard it is.

00:27:59.913 --> 00:28:01.143
So to do that.

00:28:01.623 --> 00:28:02.462
As you shift ahead.

00:28:03.542 --> 00:28:14.972
That's a perfect setup for this next question, because as you start to get to the end of your book, you start to talk about the leadership aspect of it and what it takes to be a good leader to shift ahead with your company.

00:28:15.603 --> 00:28:24.153
And I think, especially for public companies, they have this huge challenge where wall street is pushing them for short term results.

00:28:24.393 --> 00:28:32.042
And yet, in order to be relevant, they have to be thinking about longterm where the company is going, what markets do they want to address?

00:28:32.042 --> 00:28:32.913
How do they want to build?

00:28:33.093 --> 00:28:36.782
So there's this pressure on cost cutting and getting up the share price.

00:28:36.813 --> 00:28:39.212
And yet you want to stay relevant for the long term.

00:28:39.452 --> 00:28:41.133
And you know, we've seen great examples.

00:28:41.163 --> 00:28:45.393
companies like GE and others that have just tanked because they've made some Poor choices.

00:28:45.803 --> 00:28:48.022
how are, how can you be a good leader?

00:28:48.682 --> 00:28:52.373
And think and satisfy short term needs as well as building for the long term.

00:28:53.182 --> 00:28:55.403
Yeah, I, again, I don't think there's a magic.

00:28:55.403 --> 00:28:58.522
Here are the three steps you do, and you can become a great leader.

00:28:58.522 --> 00:29:02.873
You know, one of the characteristics that struck us as we did some of these interviews.

00:29:03.353 --> 00:29:06.053
Was that leaders attended to shift ahead?

00:29:06.383 --> 00:29:07.732
and keep their business relevant.

00:29:08.423 --> 00:29:09.772
often had the edit.

00:29:09.803 --> 00:29:14.363
There was a famous quote from bill Marriott, which is view of success is never final.

00:29:15.083 --> 00:29:20.873
and they had a notion that their business just because they had a good day to day, it doesn't mean there's a good day coming tomorrow.

00:29:21.353 --> 00:29:29.623
And they had a sense of another famous quote from the former chairman of Intel, which is only the paranoid survive.

00:29:30.222 --> 00:29:32.173
And to be a little worried about.

00:29:32.532 --> 00:29:34.813
And so if you have the idea that, Hey, we're doing great.

00:29:35.472 --> 00:29:45.012
And that's the time you're doing great is not the time to kick back, put the feet on the desk and yes, you should celebrate and acknowledge all the work, but.

00:29:45.702 --> 00:29:48.462
Just because you're doing great today does not give you a guarantee.

00:29:48.462 --> 00:29:49.573
You'll do great tomorrow.

00:29:50.053 --> 00:29:54.942
And good leaders are always trying to look around the corner.

00:29:55.512 --> 00:29:56.593
And seeing.

00:29:57.363 --> 00:30:04.262
that, yeah, it was a great quarter, but that doesn't mean, and there's always going to be something unexpected, even in the best of projecting in the future.

00:30:04.772 --> 00:30:06.063
not many people were.

00:30:06.792 --> 00:30:12.262
on the news in January of this year saying, I think there's a pandemic coming you better.

00:30:12.653 --> 00:30:14.843
You know, stock up on hand sanitizers.

00:30:14.903 --> 00:30:17.702
If I were you, until, We were in the middle of it.

00:30:17.702 --> 00:30:21.972
And of course, then having somebody who said, I saw it coming, but I didn't want to say anything.

00:30:22.272 --> 00:30:22.903
It's not really.

00:30:24.073 --> 00:30:24.883
Not really credible.

00:30:25.962 --> 00:30:29.113
I think the book is just shock full of great examples.

00:30:29.163 --> 00:30:39.542
before we wrap things up today, were there any case studies or interviews that you did with business leaders that, surprised you or you really walked away with, with some unique insight?

00:30:40.191 --> 00:30:40.431
yeah.

00:30:40.431 --> 00:30:41.990
One unusual story.

00:30:41.990 --> 00:30:46.191
Cause we didn't wanna just do Kodak and Blackberry and Apple.

00:30:46.191 --> 00:30:52.221
And we spoke to the folks who, Had re-imagined a public library.

00:30:52.221 --> 00:31:06.951
It was the Greenwich library, which is a little bit special because of Greenwich is a very affluent community, but they, years before life changed, they had noticed that, of course, people weren't necessarily hanging out at the library to pick up books or magazines.

00:31:07.550 --> 00:31:12.980
at least in Greenwich, people were coming there to be entrepreneurial, to do research, to work.

00:31:13.520 --> 00:31:16.730
And so early on, they said, gee, we need to reimagine.

00:31:17.300 --> 00:31:19.580
What problem is a library solving tomorrow?

00:31:19.611 --> 00:31:20.901
Not what is it doing today?

00:31:21.260 --> 00:31:22.951
And they built a we work.

00:31:24.330 --> 00:31:26.641
Situation in Greenwich library where you could come.

00:31:26.671 --> 00:31:29.310
And if you want to start a business, have some place to work.

00:31:29.790 --> 00:31:35.851
They realize that just because you could Google something and you could find things, you still needed a concierge.

00:31:36.090 --> 00:31:39.810
So their library ends became consultants and advisors.

00:31:39.840 --> 00:31:43.590
If you wanted to start a business, they can help you think through how to find things.

00:31:44.590 --> 00:31:45.971
no, they had the benefit of time.

00:31:46.510 --> 00:31:56.080
Because they started early and I also had the benefit of the high tax base in Greenwich so that when they wanted to redesign the library and put more work in cubicles in and do lectures on technology.

00:31:56.421 --> 00:31:59.211
and set up their own genius bar actually for their community to.

00:31:59.570 --> 00:32:02.840
You know, cause part of the problem and technology, if you've got an Apple, that's great.

00:32:02.871 --> 00:32:06.320
He goes, but most people have an Apple and a samsung.

00:32:06.320 --> 00:32:11.540
And if you have multiple pieces of hardware, multiple pieces of software, you know, you get, that's not my problem.

00:32:11.570 --> 00:32:12.290
No one can fix it.

00:32:12.351 --> 00:32:17.361
So they set up a station in the Greenwich library, which was a technology help desk.

00:32:17.361 --> 00:32:21.530
And it didn't matter if you came in with a PC hooked up to an iPhone, you know, they.

00:32:21.661 --> 00:32:24.480
their job was to figure out how do you put all these pieces together?

00:32:24.480 --> 00:32:24.601
And.

00:32:25.201 --> 00:32:26.790
And so they were able to do that.

00:32:26.790 --> 00:32:32.090
And I think if a library can do it, yes, you need to have the leadership.

00:32:32.540 --> 00:32:33.830
any business should be able to do it.

00:32:34.028 --> 00:32:43.928
I love stories like that, where people re-imagine spaces reimagine their company, really look at things from a customer's point of view and say, you know, how could we adapt to more of what the customer needs?

00:32:44.228 --> 00:32:44.887
I think that's great.

00:32:44.887 --> 00:32:45.938
And I love this book.

00:32:45.988 --> 00:32:47.008
do you have another book in you?

00:32:47.550 --> 00:32:58.721
we're working on something now about, How to survive this massive change and what type of innovation is necessarily, and it may not be totally a technology base.

00:32:58.750 --> 00:33:03.971
It may be more experienced based, which is, would you see happening in the marketplace is less about.

00:33:05.320 --> 00:33:07.090
Changing what you do, but how you do things.

00:33:07.375 --> 00:33:08.785
That sounds like a great topic.

00:33:08.785 --> 00:33:12.565
And I'd love to have you back when the book comes out to talk about it some more.

00:33:12.924 --> 00:33:17.404
Tell people how they can find you online and the book, where should they go to get it?

00:33:18.015 --> 00:33:22.305
yeah, it's shift ahead book.com has a website or of course Amazon in any of the books.

00:33:22.724 --> 00:33:24.755
And, I'm at, metaphors.com.

00:33:25.505 --> 00:33:29.105
and we're in the business of trying to help people.

00:33:29.944 --> 00:33:31.085
Figure out how to shift ahead.

00:33:31.115 --> 00:33:37.535
Cause the other notion is that if you try to do everything and you do only everything averagely, you're still invisible.

00:33:37.535 --> 00:33:40.325
Lots of people try to change and they do a little of this.

00:33:40.325 --> 00:33:40.924
A little of that.

00:33:41.115 --> 00:33:46.694
if you look at what separates winning businesses from loosing business, it's usually doing one thing.

00:33:47.115 --> 00:33:50.285
Maybe two extraordinarily, not five things averagely.

00:33:50.285 --> 00:33:51.484
No one gets excited about.

00:33:52.325 --> 00:33:54.305
Average in a word of mouth world.

00:33:54.567 --> 00:33:55.228
Oh, that's great.

00:33:55.228 --> 00:33:59.518
I will have all of this linked up in the show notes, both to the book and two metaphors.

00:33:59.480 --> 00:34:01.280
Thank you so much for being on the podcast today.

00:34:01.280 --> 00:34:05.990
This has been a really interesting interview and I can't wait to see what the next book you come out with.

00:34:06.651 --> 00:34:08.420
Thanks for having me and enjoy your day.

00:34:08.871 --> 00:34:09.260
Thank you.

00:34:11.083 --> 00:34:14.472
that wraps up another episode of The Virtual CMO podcast.

00:34:14.532 --> 00:34:26.052
As a reminder, if you'd like to learn more about Virtual CMO, strategic marketing consulting services, or anything else discussed here today, please visit us at fiveechelon.com.

00:34:26.382 --> 00:34:27.432
There's a link in the show notes.

00:34:27.432 --> 00:34:34.302
If you'd like to send us comments, feedback, guest inquiries, and your five-star reviews on Apple Podcasts are always appreciated.

00:34:34.557 --> 00:34:35.847
If you'd like to reach me.

00:34:36.148 --> 00:34:37.568
I'm EDickmann.

00:34:37.588 --> 00:34:42.418
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00:34:42.717 --> 00:34:45.177
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00:34:45.177 --> 00:34:47.907
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00:34:48.177 --> 00:34:54.378
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