Nov. 23, 2020
How to Transform Your Team Through Agile Marketing with Andrea Fryrear
In this episode, host Eric Dickmann interviews Andrea Fryrear. Andrea is the co-founder of AgileSherpas and a leading authority on optimizing customer acquisition and retention processes. She’s the author of two books on organizational agility, and an international speaker and trainer.
Her newest book is entitled "Mastering Marketing Agility." In addition to working in the trenches with dozens of the world’s most innovative companies, Andrea has spent years achieving numerous certifications in how to improve all aspects of organizational performance.
https://masteringmarketingagility.com
Eric Dickmann can be found on Twitter @EDickmann and LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/edickmann and my website https://ericdickmann.com
Andrea Fryrear can be found online at https://www.agilesherpas.com/ on Twitter @Andreafryrear, and LinkedIn https://www.linkedin.com/in/afryrear/
Episode Summary: The episode summary can be found at https://fiveechelon.com/transform-your-team-through-agile-marketing-s3e11
If you'd like to contact us with feedback or guest inquiries, please visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/podcast
For more information about Virtual CMO strategic marketing consulting services, visit The Five Echelon Group at https://fiveechelon.com
Episode #42
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The Virtual CMO podcast is sponsored by the strategic marketing consulting services of The Five Echelon Group.
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If you’d like to work directly with The Five Echelon Group and receive personal coaching and support to optimize your business, enhance your marketing effectiveness and grow your revenue, visit Five Echelon.com to learn more and schedule a free consultation.
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Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
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In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business.
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This week, I'm excited to welcome Andrea.
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Prior to the show, Andrea is the co-founder of agile Sherpas and a leading authority on optimizing customer acquisition and retention processes.
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She's the author of two books on organizational agility and an international speaker and trainer.
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Her newest book is entitled mastering marketing agility.
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In addition to working in the trenches with dozens of the world's most innovative companies, Andrea has spent years achieving numerous certifications in how to improve all aspects of organizational performance.
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Andrea.
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Hello and welcome to the virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm so glad you could join us.
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So glad to be here, Eric.
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Now, this is going to be exciting.
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I'm looking forward to this conversation.
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It's a little bit different than some of the conversations we've been having recently.
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And I'm looking forward to your insights.
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before we dig into it, I wanted to talk a little bit about your background.
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I know that you're an author, you're a speaker.
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You do corporate training and things like that.
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How have things changed for you since the world of COVID hit?
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Yeah.
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the world is very different from where I sit.
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It's all done mostly in a very good way.
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Weirdly.
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we obviously used to spend a lot of time on the road, face to face with clients doing consulting and training and all of that stuff.
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the nice thing about lockdown for us has been that we can help more people in the same time window, cause we don't have to be on a plane to go and visit them.
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So we can jump back and forth between different clients over the course of a day or a week.
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And we've been able to do a lot more, but that's also meant that we've had to have the, how do we scale up conversation pretty quickly, and also working through logistics of training.
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We've trained hundreds of people over the summer, and everybody has technical questions.
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And then also questions about the content.
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And so the work is different.
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in some ways we played tech support more than we used to, but, it's been a really exciting.
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also just see marketing leaders really.
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Take advantage of the crisis.
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I'm not sure that's the right phrase, don't want the crisis go to waste and use it to make process improvements.
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Operational improvements.
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That might have been harder to get buy in before and now; it's a must have.
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And so people are using it as a catalyst for change, which I think is cool.
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No, I love that because that's been a recommendation that I've had for a lot of my clients, as well as use this downtime.
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If you're going to reduce your marketing spend because the market has evaporated on you, use this to put processes, systems technology in place to be able to help you when we get out of this COVID moment.
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So I think that's so important.
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And so you've started this firm, Agile Sherpas.
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do I have that right?
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Yeah, that's right.
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Agile Sherpas.
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How did that get started?
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So I discovered agile about six years ago now, when I was running content for a SAS company and the developers were agile, we were not, and we couldn't keep up.
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We would just always be behind and always be trying to play catch up.
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And so I managed to convince my marketing leader at the time to let me try being agile.
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Like they were, because I'm a writer and I ran the blog.
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I was writing about it as well and saying what was working and what we were doing.
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And I started having more and more people reach out to me and say, Hey, could you help me do the same thing that you did?
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to the point where I realized this could actually be a really fun career.
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And so I left and started agile Sherpas and that's been about three years ago now.
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And so for three ish years been full time consulting and coaching with marketing teams.
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And it's been really fantastic.
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I come from a software development background as well, so I'm familiar with agile, but there may be many people in our audience that are not, and I found a definition and I just want to read it to you and see if you think that this is a pretty good explanation of what agile is.
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It says agile software development refers to software development Methodology is centered around the idea of iterative development or requirements and solutions Solved through collaboration between self-organizing cross functional teams.
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The ultimate value in agile development is that it enables teams to deliver value faster.
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With greater quality and predictability and greater aptitude to respond to change.
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What do you like?
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That is a great definition.
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Yeah.
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it's very comprehensive.
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I liked it.
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this did get its origins right.
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In more of a software development and that space within technology.
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So what was the migration then to take a methodology like that?
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To someplace like marketing?
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Yeah, it's very interesting because pre agile software development was this really critical bottleneck in most organizations that were reliant on technology because it would take them months and months, sometimes years to deliver anything to the market.
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And then it would be oftentimes a flop, right?
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We can.
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Think of lots of examples of that.
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But once agile solves a lot of that for software development, the bottlenecks moves to other parts of the organization.
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And so marketing started to become a drag.
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we couldn't keep up with product releases.
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We were not able to update messaging and branding because we were still doing that super traditional waterfall.
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Nine months to get anything into the market kinds of planning and execution of work.
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And so that's, I think part of the driver for agility to now migrate into other parts of the organization is so that we can keep pace.
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Even if you're not supporting an agile software development team, the world around us has become much more agile in the sense that consumers expect a lot more real time messaging.
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They expect us to be responsive and adaptive in ways that traditional operational models just can't keep up with.
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And regardless of whether you support an agile software development team are not agile ways of working really help marketers and any kind of knowledge work really.
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do better work faster.
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And you found in consulting and talking to some of your clients.
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That I assume they're seeing big results when they switch over to a more agile way of doing their marketing.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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It's it impacts both what you do and how you do it.
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So you're able to learn what types of channels campaign's messaging are effective much more quickly.
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So you test and learn out of much; faster cadence, but then you're also improving your efficiency so you can do more in less time.
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And so it all builds and compounds and gains in marketing outcomes, the ROI of a campaign.
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For instance, better engagement scores from employees, which helps with retention, keep people around longer.
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You don't have to deal with churn.
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And then you also see, like I said, general, just things run more smoothly from an operational level.
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I would think that in many ways, the era that we're in now with marketing automation tools really helps this process because, you know, in marketing, we do a lot of AB testing.
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You can run ads on Google, on Facebook, wherever it may be, and you can get feedback.
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literally the same day, depending on the scale of your outreach.
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And that's not necessarily true in software development, right?
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You have to go through a process of designing something, testing it, seeing if it works, maybe seeing what the user adoption is, but marketing seems like a very.
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A good place for agile to take hold.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And.
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This wouldn't have worked, in kind of old school admin style marketing, where it was print and television ads only.
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it is the digital nest of modern marketing that really drives a lot of this capability, so that even if we are going to do a larger, commercial or print spend or something, we can validate those ideas through digital testing and learn, cycles so that when we do make that big investment, we know we're doing the right thing instead of putting a lot of money into something and then seeing it blow up in our faces.
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I've got your book here, which was a very interesting read Mastering Marketing Agility.
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And you start out the book and you talk about seven key principles.
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And I was wondering if you could just walk us through that a little bit.
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What are the seven key principles and the foundation of what you believe, make some marketing team agile.
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Yeah, I, we always start off with this kind of mindset and principles discussion with clients as well, because if you skip straight to the practices and let's have a daily standup, and let's get a digital project management tool and all this fancy stuff without changing the way you think about planning and the way you think about team structures.
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Then you won't get as big of an impact as you should have.
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And some of those principles are, things like, focus on problem solving and finding, like driving to a solution instead of just, Hey, this is a problem.
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It's not my job to fix it.
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we're all.
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We're all together in the attempts to find really valuable solutions for our customers and our audiences.
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And so that's one of my favorites, in terms of just like drive to solutions, we're a team, we're a unit that needs to collaborate towards these ideas as opposed to, we're function A and your function B when we're done, you get your stuff.
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And we don't really care what happens is after we're done with our piece.
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One of the principles that I really related to was this idea around customer focus.
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And obviously that's so important when you're understanding your total addressable market, your product market fit, how you can be successful in the marketplace, but you introduced a concept that I thought was interesting.
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minimal viable persona and value proposition canvas, these two canvases that you created, could you just walk through that?
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Because that was the first time that I had really heard about this minimal viable, persona.
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I liked that.
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Yeah.
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I've been on marketing teams and there we all have where you have the persona binder that just like sits.
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On your desk and you never really do anything with it, but we spend all this time and sometimes pay all this money to get them created, but then we don't ever want to touch them.
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Cause there's like this expensive, beautiful artifact.
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But instead, we can get to know our customers in a more agile iterative way.
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And so we can do some basic knowledge collection to create what we believe to be a representation of our persona.
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And it's not a guest, It's based on our knowledge and expertise and we can tap into sales and customer service are these kinds of folks to help us.
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But then we go and validate it in the market, And say, okay, based on what we know, we think this type of messaging or this type of imagery or this channel is the right way to talk to this persona.
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Let's try right.
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And Oh, Nope.
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That sort of worked, but maybe we try to it's different.
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And so it's an iterative process.
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And over time, the persona expands to represent this new information that we've collected, but we can start doing this and learning in a couple of weeks as opposed to.
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Hey, it takes us months and months to collect all of this information.
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And then we have this document that we don't ever want to touch again.
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So it's a very different, approach to personas and the value prop canvas is similar like that.
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That's a.
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Agile tool that I've adapted again from software to marketing as a way to create campaigns and programs and messaging that are built on what the customer wants, instead of all the cool stuff we want to talk about from our products and services.
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I really like this idea, because what you're saying is that you don't want to spend lots of time and lots of money creating that binder.
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That is your customer persona or avatar.
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Instead, what you're saying is let's do some work.
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Let's figure out who we think it is and then let's test it.
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Let's iterate.
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Let's see if we're right.
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but during that testing process, you're still narrowing it down.
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You're still narrowing your focus.
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Is that right?
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Yeah, that's exactly right.
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The minimum buyable persona is, version one and we would expect it to evolve and change over time.
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Just like we would with an iterative campaign release or an iterative software release.
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The first thing you put out is not going to be the last thing you put out.
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And so there's that expansion and building over time.
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So how does agile help with this problem that so many companies get into where they focus so much on the features and not necessarily the problems that they're solving.
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Yeah, this is something that I think it's overlooked when we think about agility, is it all is very centered on consistent delivery of value to a customer.
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that's what agile is for its speed.
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Yes.
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Efficiency.
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Yes.
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Collaboration for sure.
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But we do all of that so we can deliver value more frequently.
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And Agiles kind of the cycles, right?
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If you've been an agile sprints is something you've probably encountered the idea that in this short time box of just a couple of weeks, usually.
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We're going to say, what could we do in the next two weeks that when we finish it will provide value to the audience and then we will release it.
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Hopefully people won't respond well to it, and then we will build on it.
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Or if it was a flop, at least it was only a two week efforts worth of a flop and we'll move away from it.
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But it was a low risk, could a safe to fail experiments.
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And I think that's what a lot of marketers are missing is this is okay for this not to be perfect.
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And.
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It's okay for it not to be a home run every time, because the more we learn what doesn't work, the closer we get to the thing that works really well.
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That's a great segue into what I wanted to really talk about next, which is people because that's so important in this whole process.
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And I think what you were just describing is an ability to fail.
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So to be able to try new things and see what works and what doesn't work, and that's an uncomfortable place for many people inside companies, right?
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Because.
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You're rewarded for success, not for failure, but I think as marketers, we all know that you can't really be successful in marketing, unless you're trying a number of things and optimizing seeing what's works best.
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So how do you work with organizations and their talent and their management to say, it's okay to fail or you're encouraged to fail.
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Yeah, it can be a long journey.
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Yeah.
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I bet.
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To go through, but, thinking through especially, you know, in regulated industries, there are actual risks associated with doing things in a two.
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In a way that's too quick or not compliant and things like that.
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So really thinking through what is the definition of done for something, right?
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When is it finished enough to go out into the market for some organizations that's more, there's more scope to that than others, right?
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If your software development, marketing team you're different than if you're financial services, marketing team, but figuring out what is actually done, how could we release something more early?
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And get it to a point where we could get feedback on it.
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Instead of getting fixated on one team that I coached, I liked the phrase that they use polishing the Apple, like the Apple.
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Good enough for now.
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and again, if you're doing a really iterative approach, you're going to come back to it, it's not out there like that forever.
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There's an opportunity to come back around and improve it, which is, again, something most marketing teams don't do enough of.
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We put it out, we race on to the next thing and we don't ever circle back and say, Hey, did that actually work?
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Should we do that again?
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Or should we never do it again?
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I call that the Eye of Sauron problem, it just kinda moves around, but it never gets back to where it started.
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And so things sit out there forever.
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I think one of the things that is true for many marketing professionals today is that there's a lot on their plate.
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There are a lot of channels.
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Did you have to support?
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There's a lot of content that you need to create and to constantly keep up with it, updating it, refreshing it it's a lot of work and to go along with that, we started the conversation, talking a little bit about changes with COVID and one of the big changes with COVID is remote work.
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So now you have teams that are working remotely.
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how does this affect thing like scrums and the ability to collaborate?
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Have you seen a positive effect, a negative effect, no effect.
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Is it just different?
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some of it depends on the maturity of the team.
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I think pre distribution, groups that I've worked with that were agile prior to lockdown have said how they don't know how they could have done it without their, visualized workflow, Their digital canvaban board where everything lives and now everyone can see it all the time.
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And so it made distribution less painful.
00:17:13.039 --> 00:17:16.579
likewise, they have a daily standup meeting, even now they do it virtually.
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And so it's this recurring a nice touchpoint where things can continue to move forward.
00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:30.380
And whether you do it video version, or we all stand up in a room together version, the benefits are very similar.
00:17:30.710 --> 00:17:33.319
And so agile has really been a great.
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helper for the teams that are using it in distributed environments.
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And then for those who weren't using it prior to lockdown, I think it was a big driver to say, what can we do to collaborate better?
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Because now it's, you just have to do a little bit extra.
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You work a little bit harder to make those connections and to find that time to collaborate and the agile cycles, right where we plan quite frequently.
00:17:58.880 --> 00:18:04.130
And we review quite frequently instead of, Hey, let's get together once a quarter and then go off into our separate.
00:18:04.490 --> 00:18:07.680
Home offices and not see or talk to each other for three months.
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it just doesn't work now more than ever because people's buying behaviors.
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I've changed.
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People's expectations about, brands.
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Messaging right.
00:18:18.119 --> 00:18:21.660
and involvement in a lot of these social justice conversations.
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There's a lot of expectations around that and we have to be able to be more responsive.
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We can't say, we'll talk about that at the next quarterly planning meeting, but we're just going to stay the course until then.
00:18:30.789 --> 00:18:33.250
I been a remote worker for many years.
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I've talked about it a lot on this podcast and I'd love that.
00:18:36.269 --> 00:18:45.559
but I'm used to it, but I will say that even with zoom calls and, being able to get together with collaboration tools and online chat and Slack, those kinds of things.
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But one thing that still is a little bit difficult.
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Are things like a white boarding session.
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there are certainly tools that allow you to do that, but there is something about just standing up in front of a group with a marker on a white board and being able to brainstorm that is difficult.
00:19:00.905 --> 00:19:03.965
I think still using some of these collaboration tools.
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Yeah, it's not perfect.
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That's for sure.
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but I think there are options, like we use Miro.
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MIRO with a lot of our clients and it's pretty close, like everyone can be in there at the same time, writing sticky, noting, and getting in there together because that's really the benefit of those kinds of moments is we're all putting our collective brain power at this one.
00:19:26.746 --> 00:19:28.006
Physical place.
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and so then if you can't do that, what's the next best thing.
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I've been.
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