May 12, 2021
How to Use Marketing Automation to Increase Campaign Effectiveness Part 2 with Norman Guadagno
In episode 68, host Eric Dickmann interviews Norman Guadagno. Norman is currently CMO at Acoustic, where he is helping reimagine marketing technology. Over the past two decades, he has held a number of marketing and strategy roles with a deep focus on business transformation, marketing acceleration, and brand building. Norman was previously SVP of Marketing at Carbonite, helping to successfully transform that company from B2C to B2B. He has also held senior marketing positions at digital marketing agency Wire Stone (now part of Accenture Interactive), Microsoft, and Oracle.
With both a B.A. and M.A. in psychology, Norman has always viewed marketing challenges first through the lens of human perceptions, motivations, and emotions. Combined with a deep understanding of data, proven skills as a storyteller, and rich experience as a business and people leader, his unique perspective on the social and business landscape today offers valuable insights for professionals across industries.
For show notes and a list of resources mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://fiveechelon.com/marketing-automation-increase-effectiveness-s5e2/
Send us your questions or comments
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WEBVTT
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Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
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In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business.
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Hey, Norman.
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Welcome to The Virtual CMO Podcast.
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I'm so glad you could join us today.
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It's a thrill to be here.
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I'm really excited, too, to join you and get a chance to chat.
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Oh, well, thanks.
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It's going to be an interesting conversation.
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And one of my favorite topics getting into marketing automation, you know, we just finished up our four season and the purpose of that four season.
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Well, thanks very much.
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The purpose of the four season was really to talk all about building out a strategic marketing plan for your business.
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In that season, we had two separate episodes.
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One was really focused on a marketing automation and the other was focused on CRM and analytics.
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And I think this is going to be a great follow-up discussion to that because these are very related topics, right?
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These are things that used to be very separate, kind of out there in the industry, and I think over time is companies have come in, companies have been acquired, things are starting to merge together.
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So you know, before we kick off the conversation, if you would just give the audience a little short background on yourself and Acoustic.
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Sure thing, as I said, it's great to be here.
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I love the show and the type of topics you cover.
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So I think it would be a great discussion.
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I am the CMO at Acoustic.
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Acoustic is a marketing automation company.
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But most people may not have heard about it because we have only been around for about a year and a half under the name Acoustic.
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We were actually created as a carve out a essential, I have a set of assets from IBM.
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So our core set of assets had previously been an IBM Watson Marketing before that had actually been a set of independent companies that IBM had acquired.
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So we had a long rich history in the marketing automation space, across campaign automation, analytics, and experience and analytics and measurement.
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But really, nobody knew us as Acoustic until we were reborn.
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We're now an independent private company, and we have about a 3000 customers around the globe who are using our products and were busy trying to both continue to add new value and innovation into the products, as well as a service those customers and help them do the best work possible.
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That's great, I appreciate that introduction.
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And just a little bit of the history of the company, you know, as I started to say, there, there has been so much change within the marketing automation space, and I've done this before.
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But wait, which one are you?
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Wait.
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I think we're at right down there somewhere.
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We did it here, and it's Monday 2020 amazingly.
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But you need a magnifying glass to find it.
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But it's crazy, right?
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It just, it's a statement to how much the industry has changed.
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You know, you go back and look at, this is the MarTech chart that is put out every year and talks about all the vendors that are in the space and they're categorized into different groupings.
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But if you go back, you know, just, you know, go back a decade, and the chart looks completely different.
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You could actually read it.
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And it's amazing how many companies have come into this space, but it seems like marketing automation as a platform is really evolving into a business hub, if you will.
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It's the center of a lot of things that are going on in the company.
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What's your perspective about how things are changing?
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Yeah, I think it's a great point because that chart itself is fun, but it's also, it it can be very intimidating.
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Especially if you're trying to figure out, who do I talk to?
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What do I do?
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And there's two forces at work here that I think are important for us to understand.
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One is that marketing broadly defined, has become that center point of the entire go to market strategy for a business of the way in which a business connects and communicates across all of these different channels that we have available to us today, and marketers also have realized over the past couple of decades, certainly in the last decades that technology can hopefully, make it better, make my marketing better and make me more efficient.
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Maybe scale up faster, give me better insights, there's a whole set of things.
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People who marketers work for have said, Hey, give us better insights, tell us how you're spending your money.
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So there's a naturally sort of reinforcing thing that goes on there.
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The flip side of it and the reason why I believe that there are our 8,000 companies on that chart, is that in any technology sector that is booming as marketing automation is there are inevitably a small number of large platforms that serve as the foundation for pretty much everyone.
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And then there are a lot, lot of specialized capabilities that typically connect to those larger platforms and typically are fairly narrow scope to neither a channel that they address, a particular piece of functionality they deliver, a vertical that they may operate in.
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So there's a lot of that, and what you see happen is, and this is really, if you look at that chart again, really what's going on is there's five to seven companies that are those platforms to stick with them, and then there are, as everybody else that connects in one way, shape or form accident, there's a bunch of companies that help people connect to them.
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Everyone that connects to them, everyone then analyzes it.
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If you watch the evolution of that chart over time, however, many of those small feature like products, I.
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I think of them as features.
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They either ended up combining, folding, or getting picked up and rolled into a bigger player.
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Because the natural evolution of technology in a space like this, it's true in almost every space is things that say, Oh my gosh, I gotta have this thing.
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It's a stand alone business that someone realized, well, that's really just a feature.
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Right, right.
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And up and up, but there's so much creativity and so much opportunity to improve our marketing infrastructure, marketing technology, or marketing insights that we're still continuing to see this type of growth today and marketers is throwing money at it.
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Yeah, well, that's the thing.
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It does cost a lot of money, especially if you've got a lot of these tools and services.
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And I think you're so right.
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It's many of these tools, they do one thing better, or one thing a little bit differently, but there's also a lot of overlap.
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I don't know how many subscriptions I have to products that also come with stock photography, you know.
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I'm probably paying multiple times to access the same stock photography library or you do something that helps you enhance your social media posts, and this one has filters and this one has video and, you know, can do animations.
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And this one has a, more of a calendar scheduling tool, but you'd really like them all in one.
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You don't want to pay for all of these separate tools.
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And that's, in some ways, I think how these hubs are becoming so important because if they truly have an open ecosystem and people can plug into them, that's a huge advantage.
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It is.
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And I think your analogy is a terrific one.
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Eric.
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Think about your mobile phone.
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How many camera and photography apps do you have, if you have to like taking pictures that do, just add filters, let you do a cool video, give you more control over a few things.
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There's 80% of the functionality is the same, 20% is different, and there is a lot of that.
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And actually that's one of the rules that I use in my own marketing teams.
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And that I counsel other businesses to think about.
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Which is when a vendor or an employee on the team says, Hey, you should be looking at this thing, bright shiny object.
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I mean, it's always a
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Right, right.
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Right?
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The question I use it internally and I encourage others to use is looking at the fat thing, that new object, that new capability, that new technology, and then looking at what you have in place already.
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I'm thinking very pragmatically about what does that do for me?
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What outcomes am I going to create?
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Ask yourself the question, can I add 80% of the way there with what I already have or with some slight modifications?
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Because frankly, most businesses, most of us don't use all the capabilities and the tools we already have.
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For sure.
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Right?
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And so if you ask that question, well, I'd love this super cool, shiny thing.
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That's going to cost me X.
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Kind of can get 80% or more there, but maybe just using this other feature that I'm not actually using right now, and it's something I've already invested in.
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And they may seem counterintuitive coming from a vendor.
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But I don't believe marketers should over-invest.
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I believe marketers at any level, whether it's a small business, all the way up to the enterprise should be thoughtfully investing in things that will get them the return they want.
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There's always going to be a new, bright, shiny object.
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Yeah, I couldn't agree more.
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And with so many vendors in the marketplace, all trying to survive and thrive.
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You know, pricing is also all over the place.
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I look at some of these things and said, well, I've got a whole marketing automation hub that I pay X number of dollars for a month or a year.
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And then there's shiny object that you're talking about once, just as much or more for doing this little slice of functionality.
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And, you know, they're trying to make a business case of it, but sometimes it's hard to justify the costs of some of these, and especially with so many being, you know, SAS products that just renew every year silently in the background, you can start to add up a lot of fees, just to buy all these tools that you have, which like you said, you may only be using a fraction of their capability.
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That's the beauty of this SAS business, if you're in the SAS business like I am.
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But it's the danger of the SAS business if you are a consumer.
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Let's say again, back to the analogy of, think about the services you use at home to watch entertainment.
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Maybe you have.
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Netflix, you have Amazon.
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Maybe you have a, you know, a Roku, maybe you have a TV that gets this, maybe you have cable.
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How many different subscriptions do you pay for and how many different things you have where I got this thing because I wanted this, but it also gives me all these other capabilities.
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How many different ways can you watch HBO?
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How many different ways can you watch some of these things?
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I know I have it here, like I have everything.
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So I'm paying way more than I should, and I can only watch it one at a time, no matter what I do.
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That's not unlike what we get into inside the business.
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So that, that really comes back to the thinking about your MarTech stack and your marketing automation.
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Being super clear on what am I investing in.
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To what outcomes, am I going to get?
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Because if you're not thinking about it through that land, whether it's a small investment that you're just spending X dollars a month for an integrated marketing hub or you have a big stack.
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If you're not thinking clearly about, okay, am I using all these capabilities to drive the results I want for the business?
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That's the question that marketers have to ask themselves.
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Because they get caught up in.
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Although, if I just layer this on top of this, on top of this on top, somehow it's going to make everything better, and I'm going to get better results.
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That's often not true.
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That's a nice one.
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It is, but more often than not, it's like, What's the core of my marketing automation?
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What's the core of my campaign engine?
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If you will, is that optimized completely?
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And if you ask that question, which is question I think is critical, you start to reset.
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So many businesses, email is probably the core of their outbound campaign engine.
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Are you really getting all the value out of your email?
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Automation program that you should be?
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We have a lot of smart people doing this out in the world.
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Marketers are fairly sophisticated, and if it's helpful to us, But just to step back and ask yourself, when was the last time I just thought deeply about email deliverability, for example.
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I think we all sometimes take for granted, but, lots of things can happen over time that can impact your deliverability.
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Do you keep an eye on it?
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Because if you, if the awesome email you created, God's gonna end up in the inbox of the folk she wanted to end up useless.
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That's right.
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Yeah, that's
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Right?
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All right.
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So when you're saying, Oh, open rates seem to be down or what were deliverability rates?
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And you have to start from that sort of basic premise of where am I really driving the engine from and what's happening.
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And if you do that, you start to, I think differently about the type of investments that you can and will make.
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You know, you mentioned like the iPhone and the photography apps on there.
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And you know, one of the things that developers complain a lot about is at some point, if something seems like a really key feature, you know, Apple will pull that feature into the operating system and just make it a part of the phone.
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And when I look out at, you know, those big five or six, you know, marketing automation hub companies that are out there, it's very interesting to see the directions that they're going, to see what they perceive as being important in the marketplace.
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You know, you have Salesforce who purchased Pardot, and then they have their Einstein.
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So you've got some business intelligence functionality and they are some AI, you've got Adobe buying Marquetto rights, so that's a content play.
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I'm trying to integrate the content tools with it.
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You've got now HubSpot who went sort of down a CRM direction and added that functionality than service, and now they bought a content hustle or a company to hustle, right?
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And your roots are with the AI, with Watson, and some of the business intelligence that was there.
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So when you started looking at not just with Acoustic, but with the marketplace at the whole as a whole, what do you see as some of these big macro trends where all of these platforms are sort of converging in similar directions?
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That's it's, it is a good description of what we end up doing.
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And I think we do look for the trends.
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We try to get ahead of them, but if we can, we then try to buy our way into them, honestly, because marketers are endlessly figuring out, Oh, I need to do this or I need to do that.
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I think one of the biggest trends that we see in that I think is going to be a battleground.
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If you will, in the next few years is around the use of data.
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Now everybody talks about data all the time, you can't have a discussion around marketing without talking about data.
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But we meet lots of different things when we talk about data and we start thinking about the ability to take multiple types of data, first-party data, second-party data, third-party data.
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And bring them together to make better, more informed marketing.
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That is going to be a big area that businesses are going to have to think clearly about.
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A lot of businesses are trying to decide.
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Do they want to invest in a CDP, a customer data platform or not?
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If they do.
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Is that going to be all their data.
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Some of the big Mark tech vendors want their system to be the hub.
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We're all data must slip.
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But acoustic, we believe in a more open model where we don't want to be the hub for all the data.
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We want to bring the data together to do better marketing and marketing aims so we want to be able to spring in first party data and second party data as appropriate to make sure that comes together.
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So I think thinking about data, where do you get it?
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Where does it live?
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How do you use it?
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Is a big area that we're going to see both the innovation and I think some struggle over the next few years.
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And certainly that also brings together that the MarTech and AdTech, right?
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All of the advertising technology and advertising services and where they have to interlace with each other to be more effective over time and where there might be some conflict.
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So data is a big battleground, one of the two that I think is important.
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You know, I think what's so interesting about that is sort of data becomes the foundation, right?
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And then a lot of people have layered on top of that data, some strong analytical capabilities, but in many ways, Analytics looks backwards, right?
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It looks at what's happened, so you can discover trends and see performance.
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But AI looks forward, hopefully it takes that data and projects into the future or gives you some better probability of certain things happening.
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And that to me is really exciting as you know, one of these first two things that you're talking about because I think, you know, you listen to a lot of the pundits out there and there's going to be a ton of investment in AI and 5G, right?
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They keep talking about those two things is where there's going to be a lot of investment.
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And if people can really start cracking the code on AI and getting some of this predictability down that's transformative for marketing and marketing span, right?
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It is.
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And I think when you think about AI, there is a, there's a part of AI that is the needle in a haystack problem.
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Like AI's really good at looking at every single piece of hay and saying, no.
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All right.
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And find your notes.
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That's a good part.
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It's also good at saying, Hey, I only find the, Hey, I only find the needles over here in this section.
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Because of X, Y, Z.
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Maybe you should spend some more time looking over here, so it's good at helping predict.
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And that's another area where we see this application.
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You send out a bunch of emails, some work, some don't work.
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AI is good at helping you figure out what might be some of the capabilities or the commonalities, rather that can make some of them work, some of them not work.
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That's also the case that aI can be machine learning can just do things faster than humans can just look at more, faster than humans and help you get to a good answer faster.
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But the other thing that you said, you know, this analytics tends to look backwards.
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What happened?
00:19:08.994 --> 00:19:21.167
We at Acoustic, we're actually in a process now of trying to speak more about insights rather than analytics, and insights help you see what you should do.
00:19:21.677 --> 00:19:24.498
Because backwards looking analytics are important.
00:19:25.488 --> 00:19:40.307
When you take that and then you can start to be more predictive around what should I do, gain insight into what's happening, then you can start to build programs that are again, going to be more successful and get you to that success faster.
00:19:40.518 --> 00:19:50.897
So I think that the whole area of AI, machine learning, intelligent assistance in marketing is going to continue to add value.
00:19:51.258 --> 00:19:58.377
What it doesn't replace however, is the need for clear marketing strategy.
00:19:58.708 --> 00:19:59.187
Yeah.
00:19:59.458 --> 00:20:14.898
Frankly you know, having been in this business long enough now I've seen somewhat of a decline in sophisticated holistic marketing strategy relative to marketing strategy that is driven entirely by the numbers.
00:20:15.408 --> 00:20:18.888
And you can't drive a strategy only by the numbers.
00:20:19.308 --> 00:20:20.598
You have to think about.
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Your audience, your offer.
00:20:23.838 --> 00:20:27.828
I think the value proposition that you have them, the messages.
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The way in which you're going to differentiate in a market and that.
00:20:34.189 --> 00:20:40.338
Once you give that thought and you come up with the right strategy, you then construct to apply.
00:20:40.969 --> 00:20:42.618
Machine intelligence, AI.
00:20:43.699 --> 00:20:52.398
Big scale marketing automation, but if you're losing sight of the strategy, your you're going to get yourself into trouble pretty quickly because.
00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:54.709
I need to be on.
00:20:55.908 --> 00:20:58.578
Social media apps, right?
00:20:59.269 --> 00:21:00.288
Is not a strategy.
00:21:00.888 --> 00:21:02.298
That is that's a tactic.
00:21:03.138 --> 00:21:04.969
I need to get more customers.
00:21:05.328 --> 00:21:06.588
That's not a strategy out there.
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How do I get more customers?
00:21:08.778 --> 00:21:11.479
What kind of customers, what do I offer those customers?
00:21:11.778 --> 00:21:18.558
And I think that's where we have to make sure that we're not losing sight of marketing automation.
00:21:19.368 --> 00:21:20.838
Doesn't solve the problem.
00:21:21.588 --> 00:21:28.548
Marketing automation helps you take your strategy and executed in the most efficient and effective way possible.
00:21:29.628 --> 00:21:30.588
I couldn't agree more.
00:21:30.588 --> 00:21:38.479
And that's the reason that we put together our past season, which was the Masterclass on building out that strategic marketing plan, because I've noticed the same thing.
00:21:38.479 --> 00:21:49.429
And I found a statistic online, and it ranged from, you know, the low forties to the upper thirties percentage wise in terms of companies that said they had a documented content marketing strategy.
00:21:49.429 --> 00:21:56.058
So just a piece of it, but you know, if that's all that's documented, there's not much else that's documented above that.
00:21:56.418 --> 00:21:58.038
And that's crazy, right?
00:21:58.068 --> 00:21:59.298
That to see that.
00:21:59.598 --> 00:22:06.288
60% of companies out there really have never taken the time to document a strategic marketing plan.
00:22:06.648 --> 00:22:10.969
And, you know, from my own experience, I think many believe that their budget is their plan.
00:22:11.179 --> 00:22:12.259
Which it is not, right?
00:22:12.388 --> 00:22:15.172
They're just spending money out of different buckets.
00:22:15.352 --> 00:22:17.241
So I couldn't agree with you more on that.
00:22:17.241 --> 00:22:23.961
And you know, I'm a strong advocate of that and you were starting to talk to about, you know, these two trends that you see out in the marketplace.
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