June 6, 2021
Podcasting as a Marketing Channel for Your Business with Graham Brown
In episode 75, host Eric Dickmann interviews Graham Brown. Graham is an entrepreneur, author and storyteller, podcast host, and founder of the award-winning podcast agency- Pikkal & Co. He is a published author on the subject of The Digital Transformation of Communication, works including "The Human Communication Playbook", “The Mobile Youth: Voices of the Connected Generation” – documenting the rise of mobile culture in the early 2000s in Japan, China, Africa and India and “Brand Love – How to Build a Brand Worth Talking About”. Brown also hosts Podcast Maps, The Be More Human Podcast, The XL Podcast, and Asia Tech Podcast. He has published over 1,000 podcast episodes.
Graham Brown's work has been featured in the Financial Times, The Wall Street Journal, and has helped shaped the communications strategy of clients- McKinsey, Leap by McKinsey, AirAsia, Xero, The Singapore Institute of Management, Vodafone, Nokia, UNICEF, MTV, The European Commission, Disney, and Monster Energy Drinks.
For show notes and a list of resources mentioned in this episode, please visit: https://fiveechelon.com/podcasting-marketing-channel-your-business-s5e9/
Send us your questions or comments
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WEBVTT
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Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
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In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business.
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This week, I'm excited to welcome Graham Brown to the podcast.
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Graham is an entrepreneur author, storyteller, podcast host, and Founder of Pikkal Company.
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Pikkal Company is an award-winning full service podcast agency that specializes in performance communications.
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Graham and his team have produced over 1000 podcast shows and around 20,000 episodes for their global clients.
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Graham is also a podcast host of Podcast Maps, The Be More Human Podcast, XL Podcast and Asia Tech podcast.
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Today's episode is for podcasters and aspiring podcasters who want to grow their show and expand their reach.
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Please help me welcome Graham to the program.
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Graham Brown across the pond in Singapore, welcome to The Virtual CMO Podcast.
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So glad you could join us today.
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No.
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Thank you very much for the warm welcome.
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It's great to be here.
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Looking forward to this, Eric.
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I'm looking forward to it as well.
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You know, I'm very fortunate to be able to have a lot of guests on the show representing different disciplines.
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And today we're going to get into podcasting a little bit, which of course we're doing right now, and has been such a fantastic medium during this crazy period of COVID.
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I'm really curious to hear a little bit more about your journey into podcasting When did you first get into podcasting?
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Um well I was doing podcasts before people were calling it podcasts.
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the old days yeah Um attaching a small plastic box to an analog phone line, it was almost like one of those boxes you could buy from those spice stores.
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Effectively what you had to do is you take it out on the phone line and split the cable, run it through this box and it's a wire tap, right?
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Obviously this was to do interviews.
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So I would be phoning.
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In the early days I had a mobile research business back in 99, 2000 and I was doing a lot of research globally, and phoning people and interviewing them over the phone.
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And that really was the beginning of the podcast cause I started publishing them.
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And obviously at the time we didn't have hosting platforms, we didn't have even editing software of any sorts So yeah That was the entry level beginning for podcasts for me And thank God somebody worked out that they could actually do this properly.
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But I think the need was there from a very early stage.
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When did you finally get listed on Apple Podcasts?
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Well it was not until much later.
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I mean obviously Apple didn't really pick up until the mid 2000s.
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You know with the iPod and then iTunes, and then the store et cetera.
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And then podcasting came around.
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There wasn't initially sort of an early flourishing of podcasts around about 2002, 2007, 2008.
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And I'd probably put some experiments on the Apple Store then.
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But then they sort of died out.
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It was very early adopter back then, it didn't have anything like the mass market appeal that it does now.
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So a lot of people were experimenting it because it was a new technology, it was interesting, but very, very technical and engineering based back then.
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So it's been about 10 years before we seen them come around again before the mass market picked up and started making podcasts what it is now.
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It's interesting that you say that because it really seemed like for a while, Apple was going to take podcasts and really run with it.
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There were some unique features that they had,.
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I remember I still think it's buried in there but most players don't support it, the ability to have chapter markers and different images,
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right.
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Yeah.
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And it just seem like they had this very cool tool, but they kind of just let it sit for years and years, didn't they?
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Hmm Hmm.
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There was no obvious monetization.
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Apple wasn't a major player in the advertising space and still isn't.
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So they haven't really seen podcasts for what it is.
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And Spotify has made uh an earlier move into that because it's being forced to.
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So if you think about Apple's model is very much based on subscription payments on the service level, and yet Spotify, it's model was based primarily on music and the margins on IP Assigned music.
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So for example if a label owns music, Spotify is taking a small slice of every dollar that it sells.
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So Spotify is move into podcasts is really forced by, their hand was forced because they needed better margins and Apple was fine.
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I mean obviously it was selling iPods and iPhones elsewhere, so for them, podcasts for a rounding error in their numbers.
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Yeah that's the thing that people often forget when they quote statistics.
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Clearly, Spotify has come charging hard, right?
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They're picking up a lot of subscribers, they're still number one in music subscriptions, but they're losing money.
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Apple's making money hand over fist so they can afford a little bit of time to kind of figure this out.
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And I think one of the things that's interesting too is you know years ago they made the decision to decouple a lot of these things from what was the iTunes kind of cluster that it had become, and now everything's a separate app or Spotify is pulling podcasts into their music app.
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Do you think that Apple will ever reconsider that and pull up podcasts back into their music app?
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I'm not sure, I'm not sure what the end game is.
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You're right, they've separated iTunes and Apple podcasts now, but people still call it iTunes by default.
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And that they've made that move and now they've just updated podcasts to connect.
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So they're trying to revamp their podcast interface to make that better because it was pretty as you probably know is pretty rudimentary, the interface and the analytics, really it was last century almost.
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So that's all been updated and they've made some interesting acquisitions and I think you're starting to see now they're investing in originals.
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So they want to have their original content that you've seen Spotify invest heavily in, you've seen what uh Amazon's acquisition of Wondery, for example and Amazon will be a big player in this space without a doubt.
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And so Apple is now starting to looking around, and you're starting to see some of their recruitment as well, Now, they're recruiting podcasts acquisition managers.
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So the signs are there.
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They're obviously less inclined because they have more revenues elsewhere, like you say.
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Uh but this is going to be an important space for them because they are making a move into original content and podcasts.
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I don't know have you been on on Clubhouse?
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You know it's been all the rage, people have been talking about it sort of nonstop for the last month or two.
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But I almost see signs of it petering out already What do you think about the future of platforms like Clubhouse?
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Yeah that's a great question.
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Yeah it's your listeners, I challenge them, go to Google Trends and type Clubhouse, and you'll see what these search interests.
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That's a good indication of early adopter interest in a technology, and it's really spiked.
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It's dropped right off from you know a baseline of a hundred let's say in February, uh today we're around about 20 subject search volume.
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Yeah, it's really dropped off.
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And to your point about those platforms, we're in a really interesting space Eric, and I've been studying this space for some time and you think about this sort of confluence of podcasts, radio advertising, and that sort of fourth piece of the Venn diagram which is these disruptive audio apps all coming together, and not by coincidence I have to add.
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Let's call this audio too, and this is a space where really it's been driven by a number of factors, you've got on the one hand, you know what's happened in the last year, A lot of people disconnected um we live in a very isolated world these days, remote work, COVID, et cetera.
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Then on top of that, you've got the algorithms, you know how much of work now Is being taken up by machine learning?
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And that's just a macro trend that's going to increase.
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And so there's a real push into apps and technologies that connect us, and what really audio does more than anything is it connects us in an authentic way.
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I think this is kind of like, you know these apps are coming from almost like our soul, our human soul is crying out for connection.
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Liken you know Starbucks had a place.
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It created connection in the nineties for young people, you know in America, and that spread around the world.
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So you know these apps really are coming from that space, and I think what's interesting is how do they compete and how do they compliment podcast?
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And that's the interesting question now, because some will and some won't, and they have different roles to play.
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You know Clubhouse, Discord, Fireside, which Mark Cuban's launching end of this year.
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It's going to be interesting to see how that plays out.
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I'd be curious to get your opinion.
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This is just what's been rattling around in my brain a little bit especially about Clubhouse.
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It's not new technology, right?
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The ability to connect to audio chats that dates back way back, you know to audio or phone calls where you could go join a group conference.
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That's nothing new.
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But I think they introduced an easy to use interface, it was coming sort of right near the middle end of COVID, people were longing for connection, they were longing for that ability to interact with other people, they wanted engagement, and this platform came out, and all of a sudden it was very easy to connect, engage with people who were talking about things that you wanted to talk about.
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And that was great, then all of a sudden everybody found out about it.
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And then instead of it being a room of 30 people where you could raise your hand and get on stage in five minutes, now it's a room of 500 people, you have no chance of getting onstage.
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So out goes the engagement.
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And now you've got basically a very long-winded podcast that you can't fast forward, you can't skip over any parts that you're not interested in, you're just stuck listening to a lot of people that you may not find interesting.
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What do you think?
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That's just what's been rambling through my brain.
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That's a good analysis.
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It's really been a victim of its own success.
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A few points, let's put the data on the table.
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I mean Clubhouse has 20 million users in really from a zero start a year before.
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So It's grown rapidly without a doubt.
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One of the problems has been the reliance on very much a VC community, alias celebrities, Elon Musk.
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You know here's the thing about Elon, Eric is that he sold$50 million of flame throwers.
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I know.
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It doesn't validate the model for flame throwers, right?
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Nobody could repeat that.
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He could sell anything and that halo effect is really being imparted on Clubhouse as well.
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So that has got a lot of people interested in it and the interest hasn't necessarily been sustainable.
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Now the question is like what is the relationship between Clubhouse and podcasts long-term or even music?
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And you and I both are on the wrong side of 45, we understand,
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What are you talking about?
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Yeah Sorry It was just the filter.
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So we understand what music was once, right?
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You know if you think about the seventies and eighties, and those days, music had a discoverability problem.
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That if you were an artist, you needed airplay and therefore you had radio and music coexisting, and they needed each other.
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Radio was discoverability.
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Exactly what you said, it was you know you couldn't fast forward it, you had to listen through a lot of stuff that wasn't interesting in radio.
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But then you got to your song, and all that new song or the charts, the countdown, kind of thing.
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And music needed radio because the labels needed their guy, their DJ on their local station, this guy you know that they had a good relationship with, and The DJ needed the radio cause he needed the free music and the latest songs, and songs and so on.
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So that relationship co-exist in airplay and assets And we're seeing that again I think that what clubhouse and this new generation of apps of which clubhouse is one Less solving the discoverability problem of the assets which is the music or the podcast because you create a podcast you create musics and asset It lasts forever You know you can listen to the Beatles and from the 1960s, today and they're still making money from every listen, right?
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That's an asset.
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But Clubhouse isn't an asset, it vaporizes as soon as it's done.
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I feel that those two will co-exist in the same way radio music did in the day.
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And we're seeing many analogs between the two evolve.
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You know people from one world are going into Clubhouse and hustling for their podcast which is really what just happened 40, 50 years ago.
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Well I saw a post the other day I think Social Media Examiner had it that LinkedIn is working on a Clubhouse clone which makes a ton of sense to me to be to take that network and be able to build some engagement directly on the LinkedIn platform, so we'll see.
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But that's actually a really great segue to you know the main point that I wanted to talk about.
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You know you and I are podcasters, it's a great medium to interact, to network, to be able to really expand on some interesting thoughts with some thought leaders.
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But as a business owner, some people might be thinking, Well, is this a channel that's right for me?
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Should I invest my money in buying some equipment and starting up a podcast?
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So what do you say when you talk to people, business owners specifically who were thinking about starting a podcast because they feel it'll be good for their brand, help their brand awareness, help them develop some thought leadership.
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That's a good question.
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So what is brand awareness?
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How do we measure that?
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That's gotta be the starting point Isn't it?
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Is a podcast designed to acquire leads or is it an influence play?
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And how would you define brand awareness, Eric?
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How would you actually you know measure that fast?
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You're the man obviously, CMO marketing show.
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So you know that's what is about, how would you start with the metrics there?
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Yeah I think when you're talking about brand awareness, you're talking about if I have 10 competitors in the space and you know web traffic is one way to to measure that, if somebody is going to do a search for a specific product or service, where am I in their thought process?
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Where am I down the list of those 10?
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And I think the more that you can increase your brand awareness, the higher you're going to be on that list in terms of what people are thinking of.
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So its top of mind and yeah it's not an easy thing to directly measure.
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You can measure it sort of circumstantially, but yeah it's where are you on that list.
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So let's take that top of mind idea and then think about what a podcast can do.
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So firstly there is the discoverability aspect of podcast.
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If you have a particular talking point or a narrative that you like to own, then creating a podcast and putting the content out there makes that discoverable.
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So firstly, you can go onto Google and type let's say data science, and you will see on your first page, podcasts being shown in that podcast stripe.
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That box is Carousel.
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That's Google Podcasts serving up podcasts.
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So you think about what is an extremely competitive keyword.
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Now you're ranking quite highly and if you do a search or you search anything on that you know, be my guest to check out any kind of random searches you'll find what's coming up in that Stripe is actually um content which wouldn't normally rank in the first two pages of Google if it was a website.
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And they say today that the best place to bury a dead body is in page two of Google search results.
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Right, exactly.
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If you can get into that Stripe, that's great So that's one thing.
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Secondly, you can reformat it like this as a video and that again Google likes and prefers almost YouTube videos, you know in terms of SEO content, and the third part is on store.
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So Spotify and Apple, you know the SEO game for most podcasts is pretty basic.
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So if you can just focus on the SEO aspect of your podcast on the store, so for example if you are a marketing podcast obviously, you know you're part of a category with 10,000 shows.
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How do you stand out?
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The key then is basically making sure you've got the right keywords intent that people are searching for on store because you'll find a lot of people are unaware of it.
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You know if you design a website, you designit with Google in mind.
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Very few people are designing their podcasts with Spotify and Apple in mind, because they haven't been in mind for the last five years, they're only now starting to be deal breakers in terms of your thought leadership.
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And only now can they serve up enough traffic to make it worthwhile, and therefore that's going to be the shift.
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So the first part is think about the discoverability of that top of mind.
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You've got a window, it could be two or three years when people haven't figured it out yet.
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they You know gaming SEO on websites is hard and expensive business, but on podcast, it's still greenfield.
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So that's the first part.
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The second part is the meetings and the acquisitions that you can get from podcasts itself.
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But the first part is really you know, how do you make sure that people can discover for you what you want to be a thought leader in?
00:19:26.286 --> 00:19:29.135
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast.
00:19:29.135 --> 00:19:33.996
But first, are you ready to grow, scale, and take your marketing to the next level?
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We can help build a strategic marketing plan for your business and manage its execution, step-by-step.
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We'll focus on areas like how to attract more leads.
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To find out more about our consulting offerings and schedule a consultation, go to fiveechelon.com and click on Services.
00:20:11.165 --> 00:20:12.425
Now back to the podcast.
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I think that's such a good point because as we started talking about at the beginning of the show, you know Apple has let podcast languish a bit.
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They haven't invested a whole lot into upgrades or making it a better tool, But I have a feeling that's about to change.
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You know if you believe the rumor mills, you believe like you said some of the job postings that are out there, uh you know they recognize the fact that Spotify is gaining ground here and they know that they need to do more.
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And there's also been rumors about Apple starting to develop their own search engine to with Google.
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And if Apple has any track record, it's that they promote their own assets.
00:20:52.247 --> 00:20:57.916
So I can see discoverability being something that gets tackled finally.
00:20:57.916 --> 00:21:11.267
Because you're right, if you go to Apple Podcasts, you can only put in the most elementary search to find a category, and you're going to get very random listings that are part of that, it's not going to be very refined.
00:21:11.537 --> 00:21:18.436
And it's just calling for something that's a little bit better in terms of exposing more content to potential listeners.
00:21:18.797 --> 00:21:20.477
Hmm, absolutely.
00:21:20.716 --> 00:21:40.487
Apple have made a lot of background moves in this space, not a lot is public at the moment Um they're not by default a service company, so that is obviously why they're not You know leading the pack like Spotify or even Amazon now has made some big plays.
00:21:41.206 --> 00:21:52.606
I would say with Apple as well I don't know to what extent it will become public but the equivalent of sound scan in YouTube is already been tried and tested on the platforms, so think about that.
00:21:52.636 --> 00:21:58.096
That you know the YouTube sound scan is it's basically a machine learning algorithm which listens.
00:21:58.156 --> 00:22:06.436
It just basically translates audio into text which is you know an easily accessible um machine learning library.
00:22:07.037 --> 00:22:20.477
And YouTube does that obviously for copyright issues, but it also does it because the vast majority of YouTube descriptions are pretty lame, so if I want to you know they they're like three or four lines or you know that people still use hashtags in it and so on.
00:22:21.196 --> 00:22:36.076
So what YouTube has been doing is listening to your videos and translating or transcribing them so people can discover them, because what's actually talked about as opposed to the description is much more relevant to discovery.
00:22:36.946 --> 00:23:08.416
You know it's like 5,000 words per 60 minute audio, so the same is happening now or you can bank on this in the future will happen in Spotify and Apple which basically means that you know they understand like that pretty poor interface that you talked about for Apple will become less relevant Now I'll be able to serve you content that's relevant to you based on what you're listening to, based on what I've been listening to for you on the platform.
00:23:08.807 --> 00:23:13.366
And so that's the next stage where we're going ahead with podcasts, the SoundScan equivalent.
00:23:13.517 --> 00:23:13.846
Hmm
00:23:14.146 --> 00:23:20.086
I would say to anybody out there who's already doing podcast is that you know your back catalog can't be changed.
00:23:20.446 --> 00:23:24.227
You can't go back to a podcast 10 episodes back and change it.
00:23:24.287 --> 00:23:24.767
It's done.
00:23:25.426 --> 00:23:39.227
So thinking about like your keywords now and getting them into your podcast, not in a spammy way But you know CMO or marketing, these will be picked up in time and be key to discoverability.
00:23:39.257 --> 00:23:43.067
Because your back catalog will be everything when it comes to engagement.
00:23:43.817 --> 00:23:54.797
Well I know one of the problems that exist in podcasting today is you know let's just say you search for CMO for example, you're going to get a listing of shows and episodes that maybe contain that.
00:23:55.277 --> 00:24:03.227
But the problem is and this is something that people really need to understand about podcasting is a lot of podcasters give up.
00:24:03.497 --> 00:24:07.666
You know maybe they're 20, 30 episodes in and they just stop.
00:24:08.057 --> 00:24:15.376
And there's nothing in Apple Podcasts as an example today, that penalizes them for doing that.
00:24:15.376 --> 00:24:24.326
You could get a show that shows up number three in the list that hasn't published since 2018, but because they had those keywords in there, they're going to show up, right?
00:24:24.656 --> 00:24:34.666
And I think that those are the kinds of things that need to change that more rewards need to be given to shows that are current, that are live, that haven't been abandoned, and let's hope they do that.
00:24:34.886 --> 00:24:42.109
But that really brings up another topic is that as a business owner If I'm looking to say well should I start podcasting?
00:24:42.109 --> 00:24:44.680
It's like Oh geez there are so many podcasts out there.
00:24:45.049 --> 00:24:55.029
But really if you look at the active podcasts out there, the people who can publish you know maybe at least once twice a month, that number drops pretty dramatically.
00:24:55.319 --> 00:24:57.956
This is still a wide open channel, right?
00:24:58.767 --> 00:24:59.426
Absolutely.
00:25:00.116 --> 00:25:07.017
And with some knowledge of the algorithm really helps because most people are unaware on store.
00:25:07.047 --> 00:25:08.997
Most people are off store in promotion.
00:25:09.477 --> 00:25:14.247
The on store is really where you know mine where the gold is, and the gold is on the store now.
00:25:14.997 --> 00:25:20.257
To your point about the existence of ghost ship podcasts.
00:25:20.277 --> 00:25:20.817
I like that.
00:25:20.817 --> 00:25:22.166
Ghost ship podcasts, yeah.
00:25:22.287 --> 00:25:23.277
There's a lot out there.
00:25:23.876 --> 00:25:33.807
Um you can go onto Apple And find a lot of gimlet podcasts which have stopped on Apple because obviously they've got the arrangement with Spotify now.
00:25:34.706 --> 00:25:46.706
So uh you know you're going back two or three years maybe more, but they're still ranking in the Top 10 and that doesn't do well for audience engagement because you've probably listened to it Or it's like old news whatever.
00:25:47.487 --> 00:25:56.636
So these stores need to improve on that aspect and then you know you look at for example like our data, we publish a lot of SEO data on podcast.
00:25:56.666 --> 00:26:07.916
The average business podcast now publishes 6.3 episodes a month, and you know the old days when people did one podcast episode a month, they are still around.
00:26:07.977 --> 00:26:09.507
You know people think that that's enough.
00:26:09.956 --> 00:26:13.916
You look at Gary Vaynerchuk he's doing 30 episodes a month.
00:26:13.946 --> 00:26:15.247
That's one every day,
00:26:15.247 --> 00:26:15.956
That's crazy.
00:26:15.956 --> 00:26:16.156
Right?
00:26:16.646 --> 00:26:20.336
These aren't like seven minute episodes, These are 30 minute episodes full.
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