Sept. 12, 2021
Using Digital Marketing to Grow Your Business with Saunder Schroeder
In episode 91, host Eric Dickmann interviews Saunder Schroeder. Saunder is a digital marketer and the Chief Marketing Officer of Disruptive Advertising. Throughout his career, he has been able to help grow hundreds of businesses by creating digital marketing strategies to drive traffic and generate leads. Saunder has created and executed digital marketing strategies for Fortune 500 companies, including Adobe, Citrix, Dell, ESPN, Time Warner Cable, Lynda, Blendtec, Groopdealz, Salesforce, Pluralsight, and many others. His mission is to grow people and brands that he believes in.
For show notes and a list of resources mentioned in this episode, please visit:
https://fiveechelon.com/using-digital-marketing-grow-your-business-s6ep10/
Send us your questions or comments
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WEBVTT
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Welcome to The Virtual CMO podcast.
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I'm your host, Eric Dickmann.
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In this podcast, we have conversations with marketing professionals who share the strategies, tactics, and mindset you can use to improve the effectiveness of your marketing activities and grow your business.
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Hey Saunder, welcome to The Virtual CMO Podcast.
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I'm very glad you could join us today.
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Yeah, thanks for having me.
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Excited to chat more.
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Yeah, I'm excited about it too.
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You know, we talk a lot about digital marketing on this show and strategies there, and around paid advertising.
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And I'm really interested to pick your brain on this topic because.
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I think a lot's changing out there, you know your company is called Disruptive,.
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right?
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And I think there's a lot of disruptive forces going on in advertising right now.
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And I'm curious, you know when you look at the marketplace, at the landscape of just what's going on in the digital advertising world, what do you see?
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I mean, what is really disruptive right now?
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Yeah.
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I think what we've seen recently is a lot of saturation on Facebook, which is starting to cause a lot of other players to be more relevant.
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So, uh, think of Spotify advertising, Hulu, LinkedIn, we're seeing a lot of B2B businesses advertising more and more there.
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So yeah, I think when there just becomes a saturation point and things become more and more expensive, it's usually an opportunity to figure out other channels that perform better.
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I know it's hard to generalize because every business is going to be a little unique, their target customers are going to be located in different places.
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But have you seen a trend sort of away from traditional web advertising and more towards mobile or ads within these platforms that you're talking about, or are you finding that each is still very relevant just depending on that target audience?
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Yeah, good question.
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I would say they're still very relevant.
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You know Google.
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Is still our biggest channel, you know?
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And that's after six or seven years of introducing social.
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So Google is still for us is the king just because it is so bottom of the funnel, and then 10 is so good there.
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And then as far as mobile goes, the platforms do such a good job of just optimizing for mobile just within the platform.
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And so strategies tend to not change that much.
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Now, I will say when you're doing video ads, that does change a lot.
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That's where we tend to go more the one-to-one ratio versus the traditional 16:9 or you can do like a 4:3.
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So these are your aspect ratios so a 1:1 just looks good on mobile and desktop, so it's a good like universal one.
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I know we're recording this episode in early July, and I just read an article yesterday where they were saying that because of Apple's changes to the opt-in tracking and across website tracking,.
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That a lot of digital advertising dollars are now being focused on the Android platform because advertisers aren't being able to track the effectiveness of their ads across multiple channels the way they were before.
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Do you think that this is a blip as people just figure out new ways of doing that tracking?
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Or do you think that this is going to force maybe companies like Apple to rethink some of those policies?
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Yeah, it's a very interesting question.
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It's a very interesting time right now with these changes.
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II definitely think we are moving more towards a privacy first world.
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And at the same time, I mean, I would say I'm very guilty of this, I feel very pot committed when it comes to cookies and privacy.
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And it's like, everyone already has all my data and info and it just feels like a hassle to have to almost hit the reset button on all of that.
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And so I mean, we've seen about a 2% to 3% dip since Apple came out with iOS 14.5 on Facebook.
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A dip in spending you mean?
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No, just a dip on more or less your conversion tracking.
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So your end to end results and just not being able to have full attribution like we had before.
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And so you know, I think it will be interesting.
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I mean, how Apple gets by this is by more or less uploading their algorithm directly to the device.
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And that's where all your personalization and preferences happen.
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And so it feels like, I mean, this is, uh, you know, Facebook just hit a trillion dollar market cap.
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So it's a trillion dollar problem for them to solve and combined Google, you know, we're probably talking closer to 2 trillion.
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And so it feels like that's probably where things will start to move is maybe a more personalized algorithm on everyone's phone.
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Now, I think we'll kind of see how Apple wants to play there.
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I saw a tweet actually yesterday that Apple, a lot of executives at Apple are almost calling war on Facebook and going after them.
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And so that'll be interesting just to see how it all pans out.
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No, it wasn't that long ago when the only thing that you could really look at were Nielsen ratings and subscriber numbers, right?
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You had very little data about where your advertising was going and how it was being absorbed by the target audience.
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And in many ways we've become spoiled as digital marketers.
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There's so much information that we've had access to.
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That it does feel like the tap is starting to be turned off a little bit, but we've been spoiled.
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Yeah, 100%.
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It's been.
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I mean, it's been great that we have this data and it's first party and right there.
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And obviously there's, the platforms tend to overshow or exaggerate, I guess really what the data is with retargeting and different things, but it's still been nice to have access to all that data.
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Yeah.
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Well, and I think, especially in the B2C world, right?
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There are so many different platforms that you can use, whether they're the Instagrams, the Facebooks, the TikTok, Snapchats, all that, or just places on the web where you can go to put your ad.
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But in the B2B space, when I talk to clients, it's often a little bit more frustrating for them because they're trying to figure out where their buyer is hanging out and you know, for personal use, they're probably checking Facebook and doing those things like everybody else typically does.
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But for more business focused, it seems like their mind just goes to LinkedIn and that's where it stops.
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When you work with B2B customers, how do you help them sort of get their head around the choices that they have on where they can put out their message?
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Yeah.
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You know being a CMO of a B2B company, I can speak from firsthand experience and with our clients you know we tend to maximize as much of Google as we can.
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And we, we do that with end to end tracking.
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So we understand what keyword is actually generating close deals because you can get a lot of clicks and traffic that just doesn't convert from Google as well.
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And in the B2B space, it tends to be very expensive.
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And then you know, another great avenue that is outside of platform is sponsored listings.
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So like your G2s, and really just maximizing and rating there.
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That just tends to be at some point where someone's going to end up in the buyer journey and just comparing and making sure they're making the right decision.
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If not, you know, going directly there just to search for solutions.
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So maximizing platforms like that is great.
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And then, you know as far as retargeting goes, we say retarget everywhere you can, so Facebook, Twitter, LinkedIn.
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And you're right, even if someone who's been to your website is on Facebook at night, you know, they're probably not in the best buying mindset.
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And you know, we also think that's a good opportunity usually for them to click on it and you know save that article in their tab or you can always retarget them again based on time on site to get them to come back.
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So yeah, I would say that's, as far as the paid strategy goes, typically where we like to start.
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I like that you brought up things like G2 crowd or Trust Radius, and the Gartner sites.
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There are a lot of them out there.
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And of course that's a challenge as well, right?
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Which one do you go to?
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Do you go to them all?
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Are you paying some of them, you know, you can pay and have your listing show up at the top.
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Others, you've just got to work to try to get those reviews up there.
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So you'll be in whatever they term their magic quadrant so that you show up near the top.
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How do you advise clients there?
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Do you say select one or two or do you think you've got to have a presence on all of them?
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No, I think eventually definitely getting a presence on all is beneficial.
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And I think where to start is, I would start with your highest value keywords.
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And so you know, for us, that would be you.
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I taught PPC agency and then I just look and see, okay, which ones are rating or ranking at the top.
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And so if you're yeah whatever industry you're in, I would just essentially Google that term and just see where, where you're showing up.
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And so if that's G2 crowd has the number one spot there, that's probably where I would invest because they're probably getting the most organic traffic there.
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And so that's what I would recommend.
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I think that's an interesting thing that you brought up because oftentimes I think people look at that and say, well, you've got to go to the G2 site.
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You've got to, you know look around for your solution and see what it's rated.
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But actually a lot of traffic that goes to G2 is coming from Google, right?
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They have done very well with their search engine optimization so their listings tend to show up very high in the rankings for certain keywords like you're talking about.
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And that's how people end up on G2, not necessarily going to the site and doing a search there.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Yeah I think that's more or less how they've started and how they've created this monster is through SEO and they now do a very great job across the board with our digital marketing.
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But, yeah, that's at least that's what we're seeing for the keywords that we more or less want to rank for.
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And I just think we're getting kind of to this age of transparency and really, I guess more like user generated content and for B2B, yeah sure there's like case studies.
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But a lot of people tend to not love case studies because they know you're going to show your best foot forward or put your best foot forward.
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And so we love the third-party validation of like a G2 or a clutch or, you know these other ones that you've mentioned.
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Yeah, I agree.
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And I've seen some good results come from those, you know, Their cost varies just depending on what kind of a relationship with you have you have with them and what kind of leads you want.
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But yeah, it can be very valuable, especially I think in the B2B space.
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And you also talked about the importance of retargeting and I think a lot of businesses miss that opportunity.
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We certainly see it a lot in the B2B space.
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You know you go look for that pair of shoes on Macy's site.
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And next thing you know, you've got shoe ads popping up all over the place, right?
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But I think a lot of businesses miss that opportunity.
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So if somebody came to to your firm and said, Hey, I want to start a retargeting campaign.
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Walk me through what that looks like for a business that is new to doing retargeting ads.
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Yeah.
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So we tend to like to focus on three stages of the funnel which I think most people are familiar with, but top of funnel, mid funnel, and bottom funnel.
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And we like to define those stages usually by how they're interacting with the site.
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So a top funnel audience would be someone who's visiting the site.
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You know, maybe they've come once or twice, that would be very top funnel.
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Probably have come to blog content, maybe they saw an ad for an ebook, but that's what we would consider very like top funnel.
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So very introduction to the brand.
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Middle funnel would be someone who's maybe opened up a form but hasn't converted or maybe they visited the site four or five times and then bottom funnel would be similar like form engagement, but has been to the site, you know, probably 8 or 10 times.
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There's also other tools that you can use, like Clearbit or Zoom Info that allow you to really segment your audience based on company size or industry.
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And so that, that adds another layer of personalization.
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You can add into your top, middle, and bottom funnel ads.
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And then as far as content goes, for top of funnel, we like to just continue to put out blog posts and helpful.
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I'd more call it, I guess, value content.
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So at that point, you're typically not wanting to show, come be a client of Disruptive or come be a client of you know, whatever company you're in.
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And so, yeah, we tend to focus on value.
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Whereas when we get to bottom funnel, it's, you know, that's where we're highlighting more of our case studies or that's where we're highlighting more of our, I mean, still content, I would just say maybe more brand-focused content.
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So like you know, recently we helped consult a client on their website redesign and we don't do that ourselves.
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We just, you know, that was a good, like value thing for us based on conversion data we were seeing and testing and helping them optimize.
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And so just more, I guess, highlighting the partnership aspects.
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Okay.
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And then even for a B2B company, you suggest that people do the retargeting, even off, you know things like Facebook or an Instagram, more sort of consumer focused channels, just to get that message out there.
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Even in front of people, when they may be you know, just surfing for leisure?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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100%.
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And I think that's where the content really matters based on where they're at.
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Because if you're just able to give them more valuable content.
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It's not necessarily an annoyance, right?
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I mean we want to keep an eye on your frequency and make sure they're not seeing the same ad probably more than three times.
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And so maybe that's the one caution I would give, but yeah,they've been to your site, they've shown some interest, and who knows, they may have been to three or four of your competitors as well.
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And so just staying top of mind and being relevant, and really focusing on value I think is a big differentiator.
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What's your view on account-based marketing platforms?
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You know, something like a Terminus where you're actually targeting people at certain companies with these same type of value ads to try to pull them into your side.
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Have you seen some pretty effective campaigns through a company's marketing strategies?
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Yeah, we have.
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I would say, so account based marketing, I'll probably call it ABM the acronym here, but you know, I would say it's very hit or miss.
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And I would say it's very hit or miss based on expectations.
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I think most people want to see it working in three months where we found it typically takes one to two years to be working and to get people in the funnel.
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And I think that can also vary depending on the industry you're in or what you're selling, and what the buying cycle looks like.
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So if most companies are in a 12 month contract, then you should probably assume you at least have, you know a 12 month test period of testing it out and seeing how it works.
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Where you know, Adobe is one of our clients and we manage a lot of their LinkedIn spend.
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And that's all we do for them is ABM, and they have their lists and that's the only people we advertise and market to, are people on their lists.
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And so we're able to track through Adobe analytics, how many contracts we're actually influencing and how many pieces of content they've seen it through our advertising.
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And so that has been very effective.
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But that's on Adobe, right?
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And they have a very recognizable brand.
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And so that's more or less what you're going up against is educating during that one year period, as well as selling them on why they should switch to you.
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And so I think that's more or less, I guess the caution I would throw out with ABM is.
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It works.
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You just have to have the right expectations to go along with it.
00:17:20.162 --> 00:17:23.011
Hey, it's Eric here and we'll be right back to the podcast.
00:17:23.011 --> 00:17:27.872
But first, are you ready to grow, scale, and take your marketing to the next level?
00:17:28.082 --> 00:17:34.442
If so, The Five Echelon Group's Virtual CMO consulting service may be a great fit for you.
00:17:34.711 --> 00:17:40.622
We can help build a strategic marketing plan for your business and manage its execution, step-by-step.
00:17:40.862 --> 00:17:43.412
We'll focus on areas like how to attract more leads.
00:17:43.682 --> 00:17:47.821
How to create compelling messaging that resonates with your ideal customers.
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How to strategically package and position your products and services.
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To find out more about our consulting offerings and schedule a consultation, go to fiveechelon.com and click on Services.
00:18:05.041 --> 00:18:06.301
Now back to the podcast.
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You're so right too about recognizable brands, you know they have a distinct advantage because you don't sort of have to sell them or educate them on the brand itself.
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They can jump into a little bit more about some of the value that their products are creating or offering.
00:18:23.412 --> 00:18:28.902
But if you're an unknown brand, you sorta have to establish that brand presence as well, which does take some time.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, a lot of time.
00:18:31.602 --> 00:18:41.801
So when you get new customers and especially customers that may have already engaged on some sort of a Google strategy, maybe they're doing some PPC or maybe they're doing Facebook ads or whatnot.
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What are some common mistakes that you see people making?
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I know people can spend a ton of money on Google very quickly if they're not careful.
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So what do you see as people making, you know, just little simple mistakes that are pretty common across clients?
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Yeah.
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You know, I would say probably the most common mistake are people accepting the changes Google is recommending.
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Oh, really?
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So, I mean, Google wants you to spend more and more money, right?
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That's what parents send advised by.
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And so, and not saying not all their recommendations are bad.
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So you know, I would say that's one of them.
00:19:21.311 --> 00:19:29.051
And I think that ultimately ties to end to end tracking and just understanding what keywords are actually converting.
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And so whether you're using you know, Salesforce as your CRM or HubSpot or Zoho, you know, whoever it might be.
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Just making sure you have the right tracking in place to really understand where your SQLs, SALs, Ops, and ultimately close deals are actually coming from.
00:19:48.571 --> 00:19:52.301
You know to me that's usually what a lot of companies are missing.
00:19:52.301 --> 00:19:58.541
They're typically tracking like their MQLs, but you know that's kind of it in platform.
00:19:58.662 --> 00:20:09.491
And so, you know, Google is actually done a great job, similar to what Facebook has done of being able to optimize for conversion events within your CRM.
00:20:09.491 --> 00:20:23.471
And so I think that's usually where most people fall short is the tracking and then accepting changes or maybe, you know, going a shotgun approach for too long, instead of optimizing, you know, more snipering in on the ones that are performing.
00:20:23.531 --> 00:20:25.602
So probably it's probably those three things.
00:20:26.261 --> 00:20:29.172
Yeah, campaigns can just sort of sit on autopilot for a while.
00:20:29.172 --> 00:20:33.521
It keeps spending money without really ever taking the time to go back and seeing what's working.
00:20:33.521 --> 00:20:35.652
What's not which ones can you get rid of?
00:20:35.652 --> 00:20:38.382
Which ones are maybe, should you put some more money behind?
00:20:38.771 --> 00:20:40.662
And when you talk about tracking.
00:20:41.112 --> 00:20:49.091
Uh, you know, one of the things that I've seen is that, you know, people will spend money on certain keywords and then they will, they will take them to some generic page.
00:20:49.122 --> 00:20:55.602
They won't have created good landing page content that really helps, you know, convert that lead once they get it.
00:20:55.841 --> 00:20:57.791
Do you see this as a big problem as well?
00:20:58.451 --> 00:20:59.531
Yeah, definitely.
00:20:59.692 --> 00:20:59.872
Yeah.
00:20:59.961 --> 00:21:03.761
I think a lot of people would just take their leads to a homepage, right?
00:21:03.761 --> 00:21:14.862
Which typically is more like a branded page versus like a solution page or you know, and so yeah, I think that's a huge missed opportunity I think.
00:21:15.581 --> 00:21:23.112
You know we're not seeing it as much now as we were like seven years ago, and I think there's just been a lot of good solutions.
00:21:23.711 --> 00:21:33.001
You know, you have Unbounced, you have Squarespace, you have a lot of just tools now that you can use to easily populate a landing page.
00:21:33.001 --> 00:21:34.281
HubSpot does it.
00:21:34.751 --> 00:21:38.321
You know, Salesforce has some ways you can do it.
00:21:38.321 --> 00:21:47.652
And so, yeah, I think, and it still is a very big pain point because a lot of companies, especially newer companies you know, don't have the time, right?
00:21:47.682 --> 00:21:49.392
To create a landing page.
00:21:49.392 --> 00:21:52.201
And so they just say, well our homepage is good enough, so we'll just send them there.
00:21:52.352 --> 00:21:54.251
And I can resonate with that.
00:21:54.251 --> 00:22:03.221
I mean, it's hard to prioritize everything and you know, I think sometimes you definitely need to get to the 80% completed before turning things on.
00:22:04.182 --> 00:22:07.451
Have you seen better success with some of the tools?
00:22:07.451 --> 00:22:11.771
Like I know Facebook offers you know lead capture right within the ad itself.
00:22:11.771 --> 00:22:15.852
So you don't have to push people to a landing page with some of their lead forms.
00:22:16.122 --> 00:22:17.622
Do you recommend that people do that?
00:22:17.622 --> 00:22:26.771
Is that shown to be more effective because it's less friction or do you then lose the ability to really drive people to your website and then have them explore around some more.
00:22:28.841 --> 00:22:29.831
Yeah, great question.
00:22:29.831 --> 00:22:42.461
You know, for companies that may have, it tends to work better I guess, for B2C where they're looking for like a lower cost per lead.
00:22:42.731 --> 00:22:44.551
I mean everyone wants a low cost per lead.
00:22:45.922 --> 00:22:51.372
It's great at generating quantity and tends to not generate quality.
00:22:51.821 --> 00:22:57.701
And one way we've been able to make it work for ourselves is through eBooks and for our clients.
00:22:58.061 --> 00:23:13.991
And so it's an easy way for someone to download an eBook right through the app, instead of having to go to the landing page, and then you can just use, you know like Zapier that connects to your CRM or marketing automation software that just sends it directly to them.
00:23:13.991 --> 00:23:16.001
And then you have all their info that way.
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